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> These planes cannot fly without a computer adjusting them to keep the balance... First I have heard of this issue, though I haven't been following it closel

> These planes cannot fly without a computer adjusting them to keep the balance... First I have heard of this issue, though I haven't been following it closely. Citation, please?

jen729w 7y ago
https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing... http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-software-updates.page http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-software-upd...
codingslave 7y ago
I dont have time to find all the sources for this. But basically Boeing tried to make a flawed plane because it was cheaper and they could fly more people around on less fuel. The plane was also designed for runways in third world countries. Then they hired 8$ an hour software engineers to patch up the issues that they knew about (which ended up taking down the plane anyways).
- FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
  Not all the sources. Just one, reasonably well documented source. From what I understand, MCAS functions to emulate the similar flight experience of prior 737 aircraft to minimize pilot retraining..l
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    I think that there are two issues. MCAS was needed because the airplane wouldn't meet FAA rules without it. Fixes for things like that are not necessarily bad. Problem comes from two issues. Not wanting to require retraining meant they tried to bury the MCAS's existence to the point of not having a way to disable it and only it. And second the flight envelope problems were worse than originally expected. So they gave MCAS more control authority. They ended up with a problem where bad inputs to the MCAS system could only be countered by disabling the electric trim motors. Once you did that the only way to fix the trim was via a manual wheel which didn't have enough mechanical advantage when the elevators were loaded. That itself was a festering problem carried forward from the original design.
advantager 7y ago
Look up MCAS.
- FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
  Yeah, I know about MCAS, and nothing I have found suggests the airplane is inherently unstable. In fact, a cursory search shows the opposite. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19556707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19556707
rednerrus 7y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tuKiiznsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tuKiiznsY
ping_pong 7y ago
If you haven't been following closely, then do a modicum of your own research first before you ask for citations. The MCAS is exactly the cause of the issues and was the software that caused the crashes because it behaved unexpectedly to the pilots. The whole reason why Boeing leaned on software was because their sales pitch was that this new plane was essentially the same as a 737 so it didn't need any extra training. But this was false. They needed this MCAS because the mechanics of flying the plane were vastly different, I think because of the location of the engines, etc. That's the whole issue, where Boeing lied to the FAA and sold the 737MAX as a drop-in replacement for the 737 when it really wasn't. So if you don't even know this then you need to start from scratch and do your own research.
- function_seven 7y ago
  Everything you wrote it true, but doesn't support the statement: > These planes cannot fly without a computer adjusting them to keep the balance. I haven't seen anything suggesting that. If MCAS was completely ripped out of the computers, these planes still can be flown, right? The pilots would need to be trained on the differing characteristics, but it isn't inherently unstable like some military jets are.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    The planes would still physically fly without MCAS. (They are not unstable.) The planes could not legally fly without MCAS, because they fail a required stick force linearity certification requirement. (FAR 25.173)
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  > the mechanics of flying the plane were vastly different I suggest you need to continue doing your own research on when MCAS comes into play and why. Especially if you're going to condescend to others.

> These planes cannot fly without a computer adjusting them to keep the balance... First I have heard of this issue, though I haven't been following it closely. Citation, please?

jen729w 7y ago

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing-737-max-maneuvering-characteristics-augmentation-system-mcas-jt610/ https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/what-is-the-boeing... http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-software-updates.page http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737max/737-max-software-upd...

codingslave 7y ago

I dont have time to find all the sources for this. But basically Boeing tried to make a flawed plane because it was cheaper and they could fly more people around on less fuel. The plane was also designed for runways in third world countries. Then they hired 8$ an hour software engineers to patch up the issues that they knew about (which ended up taking down the plane anyways).

FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
Not all the sources. Just one, reasonably well documented source. From what I understand, MCAS functions to emulate the similar flight experience of prior 737 aircraft to minimize pilot retraining..l
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  I think that there are two issues. MCAS was needed because the airplane wouldn't meet FAA rules without it. Fixes for things like that are not necessarily bad. Problem comes from two issues. Not wanting to require retraining meant they tried to bury the MCAS's existence to the point of not having a way to disable it and only it. And second the flight envelope problems were worse than originally expected. So they gave MCAS more control authority. They ended up with a problem where bad inputs to the MCAS system could only be countered by disabling the electric trim motors. Once you did that the only way to fix the trim was via a manual wheel which didn't have enough mechanical advantage when the elevators were loaded. That itself was a festering problem carried forward from the original design.

advantager 7y ago

Look up MCAS.

FlyMoreRockets 7y ago
Yeah, I know about MCAS, and nothing I have found suggests the airplane is inherently unstable. In fact, a cursory search shows the opposite. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19556707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19556707

rednerrus 7y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tuKiiznsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2tuKiiznsY

ping_pong 7y ago

If you haven't been following closely, then do a modicum of your own research first before you ask for citations. The MCAS is exactly the cause of the issues and was the software that caused the crashes because it behaved unexpectedly to the pilots. The whole reason why Boeing leaned on software was because their sales pitch was that this new plane was essentially the same as a 737 so it didn't need any extra training. But this was false. They needed this MCAS because the mechanics of flying the plane were vastly different, I think because of the location of the engines, etc. That's the whole issue, where Boeing lied to the FAA and sold the 737MAX as a drop-in replacement for the 737 when it really wasn't. So if you don't even know this then you need to start from scratch and do your own research.

function_seven 7y ago
Everything you wrote it true, but doesn't support the statement: > These planes cannot fly without a computer adjusting them to keep the balance. I haven't seen anything suggesting that. If MCAS was completely ripped out of the computers, these planes still can be flown, right? The pilots would need to be trained on the differing characteristics, but it isn't inherently unstable like some military jets are.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  The planes would still physically fly without MCAS. (They are not unstable.) The planes could not legally fly without MCAS, because they fail a required stick force linearity certification requirement. (FAR 25.173)
rootusrootus 7y ago
> the mechanics of flying the plane were vastly different I suggest you need to continue doing your own research on when MCAS comes into play and why. Especially if you're going to condescend to others.