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A Data Leak Exposed the Personal Information of over 3k Ring Users
- alpb 7y agoI'm curious if Ring operates a different security engineering team than the rest of Amazon. Because Amazon.com or AWS would not get hacked; not like this.
- SolaceQuantum 7y agoI wonder if there's something to do with Ring being attached to a consumer-consumed hardware device that drastically changes the game, also.
- paggle 7y agoGiven what I’ve seen of acquisitions the teams remain distinct decades later.
- strictnein 7y agoRing wasn't hacked. They didn't properly defend against credential stuffing attacks. The victims here reused passwords.
- qw3rty01 7y agoEven if it was the official article title, "Data Leak" is extremely misleading; the attack is called credential stuffing and is unrelated to any sort of breach on Ring's end. Edit: finished reading the article, and the entire text is just as misleading as the title, credential stuffing happens all the time and really isn't newsworthy.
- bart_spoon 7y agoThe rhetoric surrounding Ring has reached a fever pitch. Seems like we get a new article or two every day about Ring, and the quality varies wildly. Its hard to know what to take seriously and what is just media preying on people's fears.
- HenriNext 7y agoNo, actually the article claimed the opposite: the attack was likely NOT credential stuffing..
- qw3rty01 7y agoAfter reading the article, it's pretty clear that it was credential stuffing and that the writer didn't take the time to understand how it worked. Not sure what security experts they talked to, but credential stuffing absolutely can get all the information described, and the whole part about wifi connected devices is completely unrelated.
- HenriNext 7y agoI'm not making any guesses what actually happened. Just stating that you misrepresented what the article actually said when you wrote "the attack is called credential stuffing". Your sentence gives impression that the article would have said it, but the article made a point for the opposite.
- qw3rty01 7y agoThe Amazon spokesperson directly said it was credential stuffing--the article was trying to argue that it was more than that in an extremely misleading way.
- HenriNext 7y agoYou may be totally right and it was credential stuffing and the article may have been wrong, misleading, incompetent and stupid. Nonetheless, you misrepresented what the article actually said -- the article raised both, the possibility credential stuffing (implied by Amazon spokesperson), and doubt about it (unspecified security expert, WiFi attacks).
- qw3rty01 7y agoCalling out an article for being misleading is not the same as misrepresenting it.
- orhmeh09 7y agoIf we read the same article, we’d have been agreeing that it said it was unlikely to be credential stuffing. > Security experts told BuzzFeed News that the format of the leaked data — which includes username, password, camera name, and time zone in a standardized format — suggests it was taken from a company database. They said data obtained via credential stuffing —when previously-compromised emails and passwords are used to get access to other accounts — would likely not display RIng-specific data like camera names or time zone. > “One could argue that the person maybe got these through credential stuffing,” Cooper Quintin, a security researcher and senior staff technologist at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told BuzzFeed News. “But if that was the case, why did that person go through and add the information about names of camera and time zones?”
- qw3rty01 7y agoAll of that information is extremely common when it comes to aggregated information sold/shared for credential stuffing, there's nothing that sticks out as odd or out of place in any of this. It can all be pulled through scripts, there's no extra effort needed.
- strictnein 7y agoThis is a credential stuffing attack. Why did they add it? Why not? I'm betting when they logged in that info came back as part of the API call.
- HenriNext 7y ago> Why did they add it? If they were going to sell the information, and the credentials really allowed to remotely access the cameras, then accessing 'camera=BEDROOM' at 11PM Friday local time may provide more entertainment value than 'camera=GARAGE'? :)
- geofft 7y ago> credential stuffing happens all the time and really isn't newsworthy. If a bad thing happens all the time and people are unaware of it, calling attention to it is entirely newsworthy. To you, as a jaded security person who understands that there are systemic risks to any network-connected service and nobody is good at defending against them, perhaps it's perfectly normal. To a customer who is making the decision between buying a network-connected doorbell for their security and buying a perfectly normal offline doorbell, the fact that credential stuffing happens all the time is a thing they need to hear about! (Also, there are straightforward ways to resist these attacks, such as "You must use 2FA," "You can only pair a new device with your Ring account while it's in physical proximity to your Ring device," "You must use either 2FA or physical proximity," "The app will generate a password for you and won't let you use an existing one, feel free to write it down on a piece of paper," etc. A home security system should be more paranoid than a politics forum or a meme generator at keeping accounts secure.)
- dylz 7y agoI really hope physical proximity is also some kind of handshake with the device, and not spoofable in-app "GPS"
- funcDropShadow 7y agoI hope physical proximity does not mean standing in front of the door. Outside.
- jessriedel 7y agoUnder that justification, it would require at a bare minimum giving the reader the proper context, e.g., "similar non-breach threats exists for a large number of common online services, such as [list examples the reader is likely to know]".
- geofft 7y agoSure, but also, my impression is that similar threats do not exist for e.g. Google (because of heuristics on login attempts, scans on the backend for breached passwords, aggressive and un-silenceable notifications about new logins, a well-staffed security team, etc.). So an accurate statement is that most online services that do not specifically invest in account security are vulnerable. Then customers can decide whether they want an internet-connected home security system from a company that doesn't invest heavily in account security.
- phjesusthatguy3 7y agoI think your objection is misplaced. It doesn't matter where the credentials came from if there's a list out there that targets Ring accounts.
- lucb1e 7y agoWould you say that a thousand houses "leaked their owner's data" (presence information) if someone went by ten thousand specific homes and rang their doorbells to test if someone is home based on information they got from a third party? I would say there is a substantial difference between compiling a list of valid Ring credentials by trial and error based on data you already have from another party ("credential stuffing") and Ring disclosing the credentials either on purpose or through a hack ("leaking data" / "data breach"). Note that another comment calls into question whether this really was credential stuffing, but that's not what I mean to comment on.
- 0xEFF 7y agoYes, if those thousand houses were connected to a wire that allowed them to be rung simultaneously and remotely.
- phjesusthatguy3 7y ago>Would you say that a thousand houses "leaked their owner's data" (presence information) if someone went by ten thousand specific homes and rang their doorbells to test if someone is home based on information they got from a third party? That's not what's the headline says, and that's not what TFA says. Someone "leaked" a list of valid credentials to Ring accounts. A better analogy would be if someone collected ten thousand keys they found around the city, tried them on every lock they came across, and then created a map showing which keys worked on which locks. And provided an infinitely-copyable keyring to go along with the map. Ring says they're not responsible for the data being out there, and that's probably true. But the data is out there, and that's a problem for the people on the list.
- EncryptEntropy 7y agoThanks, so I didn’t have to read article. Really misleading title, I was thinking “...How do only 3k accounts leak...?”
- kerng 7y agoAmazon's response seems quite defensive. They are typically a bit black box when it comes to security issues.
- oh_sigh 7y agoMaybe it's because literally every password protected service is vulnerable to users reusing passwords on other insecure sites. It would be like a website writing an expose on how ford trucks are killing hundreds of drivers and expecting a response from ford, but when you read the details it's because users are driving their trucks into brick walls, something that literally every car on the market is susceptible to.
- roywiggins 7y agoRing doesn't seem to implement basic mitigations like warning users when there's been a login from a new device. "Ring does not alert users of attempted log-in from an unknown IP address, or tell users how many others are logged into an account at one time. Because of this, there is no obvious way to know whether any bad actors have logged into people’s compromised Ring accounts without their consent."
- kerng 7y agoMFA?
- JoBrad 7y agoThey do have MFA, but only via SMS.
- megamittens 7y agoSo 3k people who installed neighborhood surveillance devices have suffered a loss of privacy? Can't seem to find much sympathy.
- oh_sigh 7y agoAlmost everyone who gets a ring or other smart door bell is getting one to see who is knocking on their door, not to spy on their neighborhood
- heavyset_go 7y agoThe Neighbors app is filled with posts about "suspicious" people walking down the street. People are very much using these devices to surveil their neighborhood.
- oh_sigh 7y agoI didn't say no one is using it to surveil their neighborhood. I said most people aren't. What percentage of Ring users do you think are posting in the Neighbors app?
- BEEdwards 7y agoThey may have just wanted a fancy eyehole, but it DOES allow spying on the neighborhood.
- Havoc 7y agoRing sure is doing a whole lot of good for privacy awareness ...by showing how not to do it
- saisundar 7y agoIt's fascinating how Ring's business model benefits from local crime prevalence, which in turn might lead people to invest in home security. It is also fascinating how media companies are likely to pounce on the slightest of flaws(some malignant, and some innocuous) with either Nest or Ring, since it feeds on people's sense of security/safety again, and thus are likely to lead to more clicks.
- spamizbad 7y ago> It is also fascinating how media companies are likely to pounce on the slightest of flaws I wouldn't characterize these flaws as slight. But I'm biased... I used to work in the security space, and I know culturally the typical engineer are less concerned, and non-technical people in the technology sector being fully deferential to product orgs in that respect.
- farisjarrah 7y agoIt's fascinating how Ring's business model benefits from local crime prevalence, which in turn might lead people to invest in home security. That's an interesting point. The whole Ring ecosystem is kinda boosted by Amazon's other business too: leaving boxes on peoples front porches to be stolen. Amazon really knows how to grow a circular ecosystem huh?
- zorpner 7y agoA friend of mine recently made the excellent point that Ring also provides Amazon with surveillance footage of their own delivery service employees. Synergy!
- catalogia 7y agoLess cynically, if Ring suppresses package theft then people might be willing to order more packages. tbh I prefer your version though.
- roywiggins 7y agoThis seems important: "Ring does not alert users of attempted log-in from an unknown IP address, or tell users how many others are logged into an account at one time. Because of this, there is no obvious way to know whether any bad actors have logged into people’s compromised Ring accounts without their consent." I can understand not having 2FA turned on by default, but a bare minimum for this kind of service would be to alert users when someone successfully logs in from a new device.
- spamizbad 7y agoMy home security system, which is really... uh... crappy... manages to do this (provide both 2 factor and letting you know when someone logs in + changes the alarm state)
- walrus01 7y agoDue to the overwhelmingly high amount of attempted fraud in grey/black market VoIP stuff, it's pretty common for wholesale SIP trunking providers to now alert the account owner whenever the web account control panel is logged into from a new, unknown ISP and/or useragent.
- dvtrn 7y agoThese “boutique” SIP providers (as I call them, Telnyx, Voipo, VoIP.ms etc) could really learn from their larger telecom counterpoints by allowing users to whitelist what IP ranges users can even authenticate from. Heck, even Linode offers this.
- sp332 7y agoJust after this came out, another batch of 1,500 Ring credentials was discovered. https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/19/ring-doorbell-passwords-exposed/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/19/ring-doorbell-passwords-ex... "of those we spoke to none had been contacted by Ring — contrary to the company’s claim."
- BEEdwards 7y agoNot referenced in this article, but something I've been thinking about while reading about the security kerfuffle, why are people putting cameras in their kids rooms? I get the exterior, but why are they spying on their kids? I can't think of a security reason for it, it's just super controlling and creepy.
- rooam-dev 7y agoIf it's just a baby then I'd want to keep an eye to not fall of the bed. Door would be closed to reduce the noise. That said, I never did it... just thinking. When they are older then I don't have a good reason.
- nwallin 7y agoBaby monitors are a thing and have been for close to 80 years. Now that cameras and displays are cheap video is on there too.
- BEEdwards 7y agoI don't mean baby monitors, I mean cameras in the room of an 8 year old. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-hacks-ring-camera-8-year-old-girl-s-bedroom-n1100586 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-hacks-ring-camera-8...
- all_blue_chucks 7y agoSo that they can be watched from elsewhere in the house...
- mulmen 7y agoObviously, but the question is why parents would do this.
- all_blue_chucks 7y agoProbably because they have multiple rooms in their homes.
- uhoh-itsmaciek 7y agoIf you hold sensitive customer data, you should idiot-proof your security, even if you can't help the better idiots. It's silly to even call these users idiots, when the service could implement several features to make them safer--whether or not they are idiots is totally beside the point. They're customers.
- EddieCPU 7y ago“An intruder could also access live camera footage from all active Ring cameras associated with an account, as well as a 30- to 60-day video history, depending on the user’s cloud storage plan.” If its stored in the Cloud, then it ain't private.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y agoJ Cox did some analysis of the dumps, writing: "I just ran these in a script I wrote to process them through HaveIBeenPwned in bulk. Every single email except ~20 was already compromised. These Ring dumps going around (+Buzzfeed prob) are highly likely password reuse; not evidence to suggest internal DB" source https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/1207864924459978752 https://twitter.com/josephfcox/status/1207864924459978752