4 ms·

Change to Chinese university's charter dropping 'freedom of thought'

54 points by 11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

superkuh 7y ago
China following the socially regressive lead the USA has been setting in terms of free speech on university campuses.
- StuffedParrot 7y ago
  Go home, grandpa, you’re drunk
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  In the US, students use their right to protest against what they see as morally abhorrent, and the government threatens to defund the universities for it. In China… well, I guess it would not be that different? I'm glad to hear you're a supporter of the right to protest.
- roenxi 7y ago
  Freedom of thought is different from freedom of speech. There is a little overlap, but freedom of speech is a broader concept. It is completely possible to have freedom of thought without having the freedom to organise a protest or broadly disseminate an idea. Freedom of thought only requires enough freedom of speech to publish an objectionable academic paper in some quiet corner of the intellectual world. It is a subtle distinction but freedom of speech implies a freedom to organise action based on speech. Freedom of thought doesn't have that implication. One can think without acting, but one can't organise mass action without speech.
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > The fallacy is to believe that under a dictatorial government you can be free inside. Quite a number of people console themselves with this thought, now that totalitarianism in one form or another is visibly on the up-grade in every part of the world. Out in the street the loudspeakers bellow, the flags flutter from the rooftops, the police with their tommy-guns prowl to and fro, the face of the Leader, four feet wide, glares from every hoarding; but up in the attics the secret enemies of the regime can record their thoughts in perfect freedom — that is the idea, more or less. -- George Orwell
- some_random 7y ago
  Come on, do you seriously think that China is looking at student protests in the US and thinking "hmm yes censorship good"? I swear, every single time an article about China doing something contemptible comes up on HN, you idiots come out of the woodwork to assert that the US is doing the same thing and therefore we can't complain.
  - yahwrong 7y ago
    > assert that the US is doing the same thing and therefore we can't complain. Yeah that's the point. normal people don't want to feel like hypocrites and why whataboutism is effective. Narcists don't suffer from this and so are happy to pass blame.
    - some_random 7y ago
      It's not always even whataboutism, I've seen people apologize for IP theft on this site by saying that US industrialists did it two centuries ago.
      - gdhbcc 7y ago
        Thats stupid, there nothing wrong with violating IP laws, regardless of who did it first.
        Jamwinner 7y ago
        Will future employers google your SN and see this? What would they think? While you may have a solid argument that many IP laws are poorly written, used, and enforced, brazenly dismissing all of them is not a better position, ethically or practically.
        yahwrong 7y ago
        It absolutely is ethically better and practical though however. IP is just information and information is meant to be free. To restrict it behind artificial pay walls is repugnant.
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
The website linked is (currently) the Japan Times, but it's a Reuters story. Maybe it would be better to link to it directly: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-university/change-to-chinese-universitys-charter-dropping-freedom-of-thought-stirs-debate-idUSKBN1YM1A3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-university/change-t...
HippoBaro 7y ago
I spent two years in Tsinghua University doing my master's degree a couple of years ago. Even though Chinese universities never enjoyed the freedom of speech/research/though as in the west, putting it on paper is very sad.
- patrec 7y ago
  Don't worry, Western universities are working hard on fixing that.
dsypa 7y ago
>“If I may dare to ask those who initiated the amendment of the Fudan University charter, how do you expect our generation of Fudan people to face our ancestors?” said one Weibo user. Is this the equivalent of linking a tweet?
mindfulhack 7y ago
I would rather the drama of bickering with others and putting up with people who disgust me (as a result of freedom of thought and speech laws), than the terrifying tyranny that is China's system. It is also tyrannical what is happening in India right now, with the systematic marginalisation of Muslim people. We need more decentralisation of power. That's the common problem here, right? Singular governments trying to rule too many people at once? The world has diversity - it's not meant to be a monoculture.
sunstone 7y ago
The phrase was replaced with the wording, "If you think freely it will cost you."

54 points by 11thEarlOfMar 7y ago

superkuh 7y ago

China following the socially regressive lead the USA has been setting in terms of free speech on university campuses.

StuffedParrot 7y ago
Go home, grandpa, you’re drunk
TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
In the US, students use their right to protest against what they see as morally abhorrent, and the government threatens to defund the universities for it. In China… well, I guess it would not be that different? I'm glad to hear you're a supporter of the right to protest.
roenxi 7y ago
Freedom of thought is different from freedom of speech. There is a little overlap, but freedom of speech is a broader concept. It is completely possible to have freedom of thought without having the freedom to organise a protest or broadly disseminate an idea. Freedom of thought only requires enough freedom of speech to publish an objectionable academic paper in some quiet corner of the intellectual world. It is a subtle distinction but freedom of speech implies a freedom to organise action based on speech. Freedom of thought doesn't have that implication. One can think without acting, but one can't organise mass action without speech.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  > The fallacy is to believe that under a dictatorial government you can be free inside. Quite a number of people console themselves with this thought, now that totalitarianism in one form or another is visibly on the up-grade in every part of the world. Out in the street the loudspeakers bellow, the flags flutter from the rooftops, the police with their tommy-guns prowl to and fro, the face of the Leader, four feet wide, glares from every hoarding; but up in the attics the secret enemies of the regime can record their thoughts in perfect freedom — that is the idea, more or less. -- George Orwell
some_random 7y ago
Come on, do you seriously think that China is looking at student protests in the US and thinking "hmm yes censorship good"? I swear, every single time an article about China doing something contemptible comes up on HN, you idiots come out of the woodwork to assert that the US is doing the same thing and therefore we can't complain.
- yahwrong 7y ago
  > assert that the US is doing the same thing and therefore we can't complain. Yeah that's the point. normal people don't want to feel like hypocrites and why whataboutism is effective. Narcists don't suffer from this and so are happy to pass blame.
  - some_random 7y ago
    It's not always even whataboutism, I've seen people apologize for IP theft on this site by saying that US industrialists did it two centuries ago.
    - gdhbcc 7y ago
      Thats stupid, there nothing wrong with violating IP laws, regardless of who did it first.
      - Jamwinner 7y ago
        Will future employers google your SN and see this? What would they think? While you may have a solid argument that many IP laws are poorly written, used, and enforced, brazenly dismissing all of them is not a better position, ethically or practically.
        yahwrong 7y ago
        It absolutely is ethically better and practical though however. IP is just information and information is meant to be free. To restrict it behind artificial pay walls is repugnant.

TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago

The website linked is (currently) the Japan Times, but it's a Reuters story. Maybe it would be better to link to it directly: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-university/change-to-chinese-universitys-charter-dropping-freedom-of-thought-stirs-debate-idUSKBN1YM1A3 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-university/change-t...

HippoBaro 7y ago

I spent two years in Tsinghua University doing my master's degree a couple of years ago. Even though Chinese universities never enjoyed the freedom of speech/research/though as in the west, putting it on paper is very sad.

patrec 7y ago
Don't worry, Western universities are working hard on fixing that.

dsypa 7y ago

>“If I may dare to ask those who initiated the amendment of the Fudan University charter, how do you expect our generation of Fudan people to face our ancestors?” said one Weibo user. Is this the equivalent of linking a tweet?

mindfulhack 7y ago

I would rather the drama of bickering with others and putting up with people who disgust me (as a result of freedom of thought and speech laws), than the terrifying tyranny that is China's system. It is also tyrannical what is happening in India right now, with the systematic marginalisation of Muslim people. We need more decentralisation of power. That's the common problem here, right? Singular governments trying to rule too many people at once? The world has diversity - it's not meant to be a monoculture.

sunstone 7y ago

The phrase was replaced with the wording, "If you think freely it will cost you."