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It would be great if there was world peace, happy families and spouses that stayed together forever, and no foreigners targeting your country. People often for

It would be great if there was world peace, happy families and spouses that stayed together forever, and no foreigners targeting your country. People often forget that foreign governments are targeting USA and US persons abroad. There isn't another move left but to have surveillance tools and ingest a lot of data. If the advantage is lost, it will be someone else having it. This also extends to military things. It'd be nice if we all cooperated as countries and built a space elevator. But that's a child's fantasy, in the end there's a power dilemma. The thing with surveillance / war industry / etc. is there isn't a better alternative. It's not about being bullheaded and mean - it's about the very real threat of losing dominance and having foreign powers boss you around. This has happened to many countries throughout the history of civilization. Instead of complaining about surveillance in intelligence, which likely doesn't relate to you, why not complain about "normal" civil liberties in a criminal law context - for instance, stricter rules around stored data. Other things include better social benefits, affordable housing, better representation as consumer (e.g. right to repair)? I bet security will mean a lot more when the system being protected helps the common person more. :)

buboard 7y ago
> Other things include better social benefits, affordable housing, better representation as consumer (e.g. right to repair)? Moving to china is a good way to ensure all those, and you get free and pervasive surveilance as a bonus. what's not to love
- no_opinions 7y ago
  They also don't have many social benefits, consumer representation or affordable housing. If they had to pay US companies back for all the IP they've stolen / used without licensing, they'd be broke.
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A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
<<Instead of complaining about surveillance in intelligence, which likely doesn't relate to you, why not complain about "normal" civil liberties in a criminal law context - for instance, stricter rules around stored data. Other things include better social benefits, affordable housing, better representation as consumer (e.g. right to repair)?<< Why not both? I also question your premise of 'it does not relate to you'. The data is there, collected and ready for analysis.. if you step out of line that is.
mmjaa 7y ago
I bet you have no clue how many innocent human beings the American government and its allies have massacred in the last 10 years. Hint: it doesn't benefit you one bit.
hnaccount141 7y ago
> instead of complaining about surveillance in intelligence, which likely doesn't relate to you, why not complain about "normal" civil liberties in a criminal law context Because some of us believe privacy to be a human right and aren't willing to accept violations of other's rights even if we might happen to benefit from it in the short term? Also, it absolutely does apply to us. The biggest revelation of Snowden's leaks was that the NSA was collecting data on all of us, not just people for whom they had probable cause. Just because that data hasn't been used against you or me yet doesn't mean it never will.
- no_opinions 7y ago
  There isn't a choice but to bulk collect and map reduce. It's a technical limitation - no one can predict the future. > Just because that data hasn't been used against you or me yet doesn't mean it never will. What do you mean? For what reason would it happen? What would be the consequence? Also, the issue of foreign countries spying hasn't been addressed. They don't collect data and do bad stuff to us? Do they have strict checks and balances to respect Americans? Are they these distinguished moralists that we should let our guard down against? Finally, no one has said a single specific thing about improving privacy for Americans. How specifically does it need to be improved? Nobody objected to making more narrowly tailored / less invasive procedures for Americans. Why not point out a problem - assuming those complaining even have one? - and suggest an improvement? But why throw the baby out with the bathwater and say all bulk information gathering is bad in itself? If there is something to be addressed, don't you think it'd be better to just improve that one area?

buboard 7y ago

> Other things include better social benefits, affordable housing, better representation as consumer (e.g. right to repair)? Moving to china is a good way to ensure all those, and you get free and pervasive surveilance as a bonus. what's not to love

no_opinions 7y ago
They also don't have many social benefits, consumer representation or affordable housing. If they had to pay US companies back for all the IP they've stolen / used without licensing, they'd be broke.
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A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago

<<Instead of complaining about surveillance in intelligence, which likely doesn't relate to you, why not complain about "normal" civil liberties in a criminal law context - for instance, stricter rules around stored data. Other things include better social benefits, affordable housing, better representation as consumer (e.g. right to repair)?<< Why not both? I also question your premise of 'it does not relate to you'. The data is there, collected and ready for analysis.. if you step out of line that is.

mmjaa 7y ago

I bet you have no clue how many innocent human beings the American government and its allies have massacred in the last 10 years. Hint: it doesn't benefit you one bit.

hnaccount141 7y ago

> instead of complaining about surveillance in intelligence, which likely doesn't relate to you, why not complain about "normal" civil liberties in a criminal law context Because some of us believe privacy to be a human right and aren't willing to accept violations of other's rights even if we might happen to benefit from it in the short term? Also, it absolutely does apply to us. The biggest revelation of Snowden's leaks was that the NSA was collecting data on all of us, not just people for whom they had probable cause. Just because that data hasn't been used against you or me yet doesn't mean it never will.

no_opinions 7y ago
There isn't a choice but to bulk collect and map reduce. It's a technical limitation - no one can predict the future. > Just because that data hasn't been used against you or me yet doesn't mean it never will. What do you mean? For what reason would it happen? What would be the consequence? Also, the issue of foreign countries spying hasn't been addressed. They don't collect data and do bad stuff to us? Do they have strict checks and balances to respect Americans? Are they these distinguished moralists that we should let our guard down against? Finally, no one has said a single specific thing about improving privacy for Americans. How specifically does it need to be improved? Nobody objected to making more narrowly tailored / less invasive procedures for Americans. Why not point out a problem - assuming those complaining even have one? - and suggest an improvement? But why throw the baby out with the bathwater and say all bulk information gathering is bad in itself? If there is something to be addressed, don't you think it'd be better to just improve that one area?