5 ms·

This seems to be conflating several separate problems 1) I can't manipulate data in my resultset well enough in google map. 2) Searches are too slow. 3) Mous

by Pxtl 7y ago

This seems to be conflating several separate problems 1) I can't manipulate data in my resultset well enough in google map. 2) Searches are too slow. 3) Mousing is bad. Now, you can argue that those are related. The first two are an argument for moving away from full-page post/response applications to SPA-style applications where the data is all in browser memory and as you manipulate it you're doing stuff on the client and pulling data from the server as needed, desktop style. The latter? I don't know why he had to go back to DOS guis. Plenty of windowed UIs are very keyboard friendly. Tab indexes, hotkeys, etc. > GUIs are in no way more intuitive than keyboard interfaces using function keys such as the POS I posted earlier. Nor do they need to be. This is where he loses me. I remember the days of keyboard UIs. They almost all suffered from being opaque. You can't say "the problem is opaque UIs" when that describes the vast majority of keyboard-based UIs. While there are obviously ways to create exceptions, GUIs are intrinsically more self-documenting than keyboard inputs, because GUIs require that the UI be presented on the screen to the user, and keyboard inputs do not.

ehnto 7y ago
Mousing is bad. It really is a cumbersome tool. I do a lot with my workspaces so that I can avoid using it.
- Pxtl 7y ago
  I never disagreed with that.
- riversflow 7y ago
  Hmmm Most Millennials I know who are technical absolutely love mice because they grew up using them, and most of them have extensive PC gaming experience to boot. I’m the Linux/CLI junky among them and even I don’t find mousing cumbersome—to use someone else’s words, it’s an amazing, first class input device. Same goes for trackballs. By comparison touchscreens are a joke, there’s no depth of input like with a mouse(RMB,LMB,etc) and every action requires large physical movements. I’m used to seeing people fly through menus with a mouse at speeds people here expect to only to see from keyboard shortcuts. Just because mousing is cumbersome for you, doesn’t means it’s universally true at all. I know keyboard shortcuts are fast, but it’s a lot to memorize compared to menus which typically have the same basic order. File|Edit|View|...|Help
  - OGWhales 7y ago
    I grew up with a mouse too and am excellent with it. I was born in the 90’s for reference. However recently on the job I have learned to use keyboard to navigate mainframe menus and editors and it’s very nice. While I don’t find a mouse bad at all, it is noticeably less efficient in some key use cases. Many productivity tools could benefit from a focus on keyboard interfacing.
  - ehnto 7y ago
    Interesting! I am definitely in your first group. Born in the 90s, grew up using a mouse and playing mouse driven PC games, yet I far, far prefer the concise precision of a keyboard. I guess it just depends on what the program requires of your inputs. When it comes to software development, window switching and maneuvering around websites, keyboards are precise and rapid, where the mouse can only do one thing at a time before needing to travel to the next input. The other important part about ditching the mouse, is that when you're predominantly typing and using both hands on the keyboard, switching over to the mouse takes a non-trivial amount of time. You have to move your hand over there, figure out where the cursor is on the screen, then do what you need to do with it. When you're doing it hundreds of times a day, it adds up.
OGWhales 7y ago
The begging of his rant was was very much all over the place but towards the end he very much honed in on the loss of keyboard efficiency. I'm sure everyone who has experienced keyboard efficiency can agree. I think the part you quoted is an interesting problem. I agree with his statement that UIs are not necessarily intuitive, however I do believe they are easier to pick up than keyboard inputs. Seeing older people try to navigate websites shows me how much "intuitiveness" I take for granted and is actually just experience. I think the focus though was that the "intuitiveness of a GUIs" is not worth the loss in efficiency, especially when we have the capabilities to combine the two interfaces into one system. One thing he said stood out to me, which was that including a mouse interface on a primarily keyboard-based system is much better than trying to add keyboard functionality in a primarily mouse-based based interface.

by Pxtl 7y ago

ehnto 7y ago

Mousing is bad. It really is a cumbersome tool. I do a lot with my workspaces so that I can avoid using it.

Pxtl 7y ago
I never disagreed with that.
riversflow 7y ago
Hmmm Most Millennials I know who are technical absolutely love mice because they grew up using them, and most of them have extensive PC gaming experience to boot. I’m the Linux/CLI junky among them and even I don’t find mousing cumbersome—to use someone else’s words, it’s an amazing, first class input device. Same goes for trackballs. By comparison touchscreens are a joke, there’s no depth of input like with a mouse(RMB,LMB,etc) and every action requires large physical movements. I’m used to seeing people fly through menus with a mouse at speeds people here expect to only to see from keyboard shortcuts. Just because mousing is cumbersome for you, doesn’t means it’s universally true at all. I know keyboard shortcuts are fast, but it’s a lot to memorize compared to menus which typically have the same basic order. File|Edit|View|...|Help
- OGWhales 7y ago
  I grew up with a mouse too and am excellent with it. I was born in the 90’s for reference. However recently on the job I have learned to use keyboard to navigate mainframe menus and editors and it’s very nice. While I don’t find a mouse bad at all, it is noticeably less efficient in some key use cases. Many productivity tools could benefit from a focus on keyboard interfacing.
- ehnto 7y ago
  Interesting! I am definitely in your first group. Born in the 90s, grew up using a mouse and playing mouse driven PC games, yet I far, far prefer the concise precision of a keyboard. I guess it just depends on what the program requires of your inputs. When it comes to software development, window switching and maneuvering around websites, keyboards are precise and rapid, where the mouse can only do one thing at a time before needing to travel to the next input. The other important part about ditching the mouse, is that when you're predominantly typing and using both hands on the keyboard, switching over to the mouse takes a non-trivial amount of time. You have to move your hand over there, figure out where the cursor is on the screen, then do what you need to do with it. When you're doing it hundreds of times a day, it adds up.

OGWhales 7y ago

The begging of his rant was was very much all over the place but towards the end he very much honed in on the loss of keyboard efficiency. I'm sure everyone who has experienced keyboard efficiency can agree. I think the part you quoted is an interesting problem. I agree with his statement that UIs are not necessarily intuitive, however I do believe they are easier to pick up than keyboard inputs. Seeing older people try to navigate websites shows me how much "intuitiveness" I take for granted and is actually just experience. I think the focus though was that the "intuitiveness of a GUIs" is not worth the loss in efficiency, especially when we have the capabilities to combine the two interfaces into one system. One thing he said stood out to me, which was that including a mouse interface on a primarily keyboard-based system is much better than trying to add keyboard functionality in a primarily mouse-based based interface.