4 ms·

What is an illusion without consciousness?

by yters 7y ago

criddell 7y ago
The conscious experience might be there but at the same time it could be an entirely deterministic thing. Maybe you and I having this exchange was determined in the instant of the big bang.
- TuringTest 7y ago
  Being deterministic doesn't make it any less conscious. We're talking perception here, not free will. In fact, there's pretty good evidence that what we call consciousness is a post-facto rationalization of the subconscious brain processes that determine an automatic answer of your brain to stimulus (not that it makes them deterministic, but certainly they're not "rational" in the classic sense).
naasking 7y ago
> What is an illusion without consciousness? A perception that, divorced from all other facts, entails a false conclusion. So your perception of conscious subjectivity could indeed be an illusion.
- antonvs 7y ago
  "Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. Put another way, how would you program a computer to have a perception of conscious subjectivity, as opposed to just blindly and unconsciously executing its instructions?
  - naasking 7y ago
    > "Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. No it doesn't! Assuming by "consciousness", you mean a phenomenon that's not reducible to unconscious particle interactions, which is typically what is meant in philosophical discussions of this topic. We have some mechanistic theories for consciousness [1]. It basically amounts to the same sort of illusion that your single core CPU uses to achieve the illusion of parallelism, ie. context switching between internal and external mental models produces the illusion of consciousness. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00500/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.0050...
    - TuringTest 7y ago
      > Assuming by "consciousness", you mean a phenomenon that's not reducible to unconscious particle interactions I'd say that's an unfounded assumption, which doesn't come up in the argument you're responding to - even if it's somewhat 'popular' elsewhere. The argument made is that consciousness is (or includes) a form of perception; not that this perception is independent of mechanistic components. With this definition, you assertion that 'conscious subjectivity is an illusion' is inconsistent, as an illusion is a complex form of perception that requires a consciousness to perceive it. Following your CPU example, there is parallelism from the point of view of the program being executed, even if it's simulated from a single-core mechanical basis (threads and context-switching).
      - naasking 7y ago
        > I'd say that's an unfounded assumption, which doesn't come up in the argument you're responding to - even if it's somewhat 'popular' elsewhere. It's not really. Consciousness quite literally does not exist in mechanistic/eliminativist conceptions of consciousness like the link I provided, just like cars don't really exist because they aren't in the ontology of physics. My clarification of "assumption" is simply because many people don't know this. > Following your CPU example, there is parallelism from the point of view of the program being executed, even if it's simulated from a single-core mechanical basis (threads and context-switching). No, there is concurrency but not parallelism.
        TuringTest 7y ago
        > just like cars don't really exist because they aren't in the ontology of physics If I understand you correctly, that's a pretty harsh criterion for existence, isn't it? Even though a car is just a composite of metal atoms under a precise configuration and not a metaphysical entity on itself, you can still use it to drive you home. I suppose that makes me an utilitarian. > No, there is concurrency but not parallelism. You're right, my bad. I've forgotten my precision from my college days. Still, that's good enough for the program, just like my consciousness is good enough for me, even if it's entirely mechanistic and doesn't exist in the same way that cars don't exist.

What is an illusion without consciousness?

by yters 7y ago

What is an illusion without consciousness?

The conscious experience might be there but at the same time it could be an entirely deterministic thing. Maybe you and I having this exchange was determined in the instant of the big bang.

TuringTest 7y ago
Being deterministic doesn't make it any less conscious. We're talking perception here, not free will. In fact, there's pretty good evidence that what we call consciousness is a post-facto rationalization of the subconscious brain processes that determine an automatic answer of your brain to stimulus (not that it makes them deterministic, but certainly they're not "rational" in the classic sense).

naasking 7y ago

> What is an illusion without consciousness? A perception that, divorced from all other facts, entails a false conclusion. So your perception of conscious subjectivity could indeed be an illusion.

antonvs 7y ago
"Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. Put another way, how would you program a computer to have a perception of conscious subjectivity, as opposed to just blindly and unconsciously executing its instructions?
- naasking 7y ago
  > "Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. No it doesn't! Assuming by "consciousness", you mean a phenomenon that's not reducible to unconscious particle interactions, which is typically what is meant in philosophical discussions of this topic. We have some mechanistic theories for consciousness [1]. It basically amounts to the same sort of illusion that your single core CPU uses to achieve the illusion of parallelism, ie. context switching between internal and external mental models produces the illusion of consciousness. [1] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00500/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.0050...
  - TuringTest 7y ago
    > Assuming by "consciousness", you mean a phenomenon that's not reducible to unconscious particle interactions I'd say that's an unfounded assumption, which doesn't come up in the argument you're responding to - even if it's somewhat 'popular' elsewhere. The argument made is that consciousness is (or includes) a form of perception; not that this perception is independent of mechanistic components. With this definition, you assertion that 'conscious subjectivity is an illusion' is inconsistent, as an illusion is a complex form of perception that requires a consciousness to perceive it. Following your CPU example, there is parallelism from the point of view of the program being executed, even if it's simulated from a single-core mechanical basis (threads and context-switching).
    - naasking 7y ago
      > I'd say that's an unfounded assumption, which doesn't come up in the argument you're responding to - even if it's somewhat 'popular' elsewhere. It's not really. Consciousness quite literally does not exist in mechanistic/eliminativist conceptions of consciousness like the link I provided, just like cars don't really exist because they aren't in the ontology of physics. My clarification of "assumption" is simply because many people don't know this. > Following your CPU example, there is parallelism from the point of view of the program being executed, even if it's simulated from a single-core mechanical basis (threads and context-switching). No, there is concurrency but not parallelism.
      - TuringTest 7y ago
        > just like cars don't really exist because they aren't in the ontology of physics If I understand you correctly, that's a pretty harsh criterion for existence, isn't it? Even though a car is just a composite of metal atoms under a precise configuration and not a metaphysical entity on itself, you can still use it to drive you home. I suppose that makes me an utilitarian. > No, there is concurrency but not parallelism. You're right, my bad. I've forgotten my precision from my college days. Still, that's good enough for the program, just like my consciousness is good enough for me, even if it's entirely mechanistic and doesn't exist in the same way that cars don't exist.