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> So far we don't know of any such thing That's not entirely correct. We don't know that a Turing machine can have conscious experience. There's no substantiat

> So far we don't know of any such thing That's not entirely correct. We don't know that a Turing machine can have conscious experience. There's no substantiated "in principle" explanation for that.

taneq 7y ago
The definition of "a conscious experience" is so vague and circular that I'm not sure the question of "whether an X can have conscious experience" (where X is computer, dog, fish, human infant...) is even all that meaningful. Either way we certainly don't have any indication that it is impossible in principle for a Turing machine to perform the same kind of calculation that gives rise to conscious experience in humans, or that this calculation would for some (supernatural?) reason not have the same outcome if performed by something other than a human brain.
- TuringTest 7y ago
  > I'm not sure the question of "whether an X can have conscious experience" (where X is computer, dog, fish, human infant...) is even all that meaningful. I do know that I have a conscious experience, so that's quite meaningful - to me. I cannot check that any other being has similar feelings, so the doubtful question would be whether "an X other than me can have conscious experience"; but people with good manners make the polite assumption that it's also true for other similar beings.
  - yters 7y ago
    Why is it polite to assume non concious entities are conscious?
    - TuringTest 7y ago
      How do you know they are non-conscious? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... For example, I'm assuming you're conscious, because you posted a reply that was on-topic and coherent with the conversation above it.
  - Zigurd 7y ago
    You may have the illusion of a "conscious experience" that is in fact a story told to yourself about how a thing you call "you" is in charge of your thoughts.
    - yters 7y ago
      What is an illusion without consciousness?
      - criddell 7y ago
        The conscious experience might be there but at the same time it could be an entirely deterministic thing. Maybe you and I having this exchange was determined in the instant of the big bang.
        TuringTest 7y ago
        Being deterministic doesn't make it any less conscious. We're talking perception here, not free will. In fact, there's pretty good evidence that what we call consciousness is a post-facto rationalization of the subconscious brain processes that determine an automatic answer of your brain to stimulus (not that it makes them deterministic, but certainly they're not "rational" in the classic sense).
      - naasking 7y ago
        > What is an illusion without consciousness? A perception that, divorced from all other facts, entails a false conclusion. So your perception of conscious subjectivity could indeed be an illusion.
        antonvs 7y ago
        "Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. Put another way, how would you program a computer to have a perception of conscious subjectivity, as opposed to just blindly and unconsciously executing its instructions?
TuringTest 7y ago
Yes, but we don't know how to check that an entity has a conscious experience, so we can not falsify that a Turing machine has one, either. That's the whole reason for the Turing Test, btw.
- antonvs 7y ago
  Yes, we can't falsify that a Turing machine has conscious experience, but we have no reason or explanation to suggest that it does have one. To come back to the original claim: > Simple: Find something that the brain does that could not, in principle, be emulated by a Turing machine or equivalent. So far we don't know of any such thing We may not "know" of such a thing with certainty, but we have a strong candidate in consciousness. There are two possibilities here: One is that Turing machines are conscious (and we're monsters for what we do with them), in which case we still have an unexplained panpsychic phenomenon which we would need new science to understand. The other is that Turing machines are not conscious, in which case there's an unexplained phenomenon in how an object like the brain can give rise to consciousness. In that case, the question of whether a Turing machine could in principle emulate consciousness depends on what the cause of consciousness is. It's certainly possible, and doesn't even seem particularly unlikely, that we find that Turing machines cannot do this, and that something other than "computation" is needed.
  - TuringTest 7y ago
    > Yes, we can't falsify that a Turing machine has conscious experience, but we have no reason or explanation to suggest that it does have one. I don't have no reason or explanation that suggests that you have a consciousness either. You could be a very elaborate chatbot that posts coherent replies at online forums. Also, I do know whether I'm a chatbot myself or not, but you can't tell about me just from the replies written here. > We may not "know" of such a thing with certainty, but we have a strong candidate in consciousness. The problem with that is, you don't have a test for consciousness. There's a strong candidate in MRI brain scans (at least for humans), but you can't really be sure.

> So far we don't know of any such thing That's not entirely correct. We don't know that a Turing machine can have conscious experience. There's no substantiated "in principle" explanation for that.

taneq 7y ago

The definition of "a conscious experience" is so vague and circular that I'm not sure the question of "whether an X can have conscious experience" (where X is computer, dog, fish, human infant...) is even all that meaningful. Either way we certainly don't have any indication that it is impossible in principle for a Turing machine to perform the same kind of calculation that gives rise to conscious experience in humans, or that this calculation would for some (supernatural?) reason not have the same outcome if performed by something other than a human brain.

TuringTest 7y ago
> I'm not sure the question of "whether an X can have conscious experience" (where X is computer, dog, fish, human infant...) is even all that meaningful. I do know that I have a conscious experience, so that's quite meaningful - to me. I cannot check that any other being has similar feelings, so the doubtful question would be whether "an X other than me can have conscious experience"; but people with good manners make the polite assumption that it's also true for other similar beings.
- yters 7y ago
  Why is it polite to assume non concious entities are conscious?
  - TuringTest 7y ago
    How do you know they are non-conscious? If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... For example, I'm assuming you're conscious, because you posted a reply that was on-topic and coherent with the conversation above it.
- Zigurd 7y ago
  You may have the illusion of a "conscious experience" that is in fact a story told to yourself about how a thing you call "you" is in charge of your thoughts.
  - yters 7y ago
    What is an illusion without consciousness?
    - criddell 7y ago
      The conscious experience might be there but at the same time it could be an entirely deterministic thing. Maybe you and I having this exchange was determined in the instant of the big bang.
      - TuringTest 7y ago
        Being deterministic doesn't make it any less conscious. We're talking perception here, not free will. In fact, there's pretty good evidence that what we call consciousness is a post-facto rationalization of the subconscious brain processes that determine an automatic answer of your brain to stimulus (not that it makes them deterministic, but certainly they're not "rational" in the classic sense).
    - naasking 7y ago
      > What is an illusion without consciousness? A perception that, divorced from all other facts, entails a false conclusion. So your perception of conscious subjectivity could indeed be an illusion.
      - antonvs 7y ago
        "Your perception of conscious subjectivity" implies consciousness. Put another way, how would you program a computer to have a perception of conscious subjectivity, as opposed to just blindly and unconsciously executing its instructions?

TuringTest 7y ago

Yes, but we don't know how to check that an entity has a conscious experience, so we can not falsify that a Turing machine has one, either. That's the whole reason for the Turing Test, btw.

antonvs 7y ago
Yes, we can't falsify that a Turing machine has conscious experience, but we have no reason or explanation to suggest that it does have one. To come back to the original claim: > Simple: Find something that the brain does that could not, in principle, be emulated by a Turing machine or equivalent. So far we don't know of any such thing We may not "know" of such a thing with certainty, but we have a strong candidate in consciousness. There are two possibilities here: One is that Turing machines are conscious (and we're monsters for what we do with them), in which case we still have an unexplained panpsychic phenomenon which we would need new science to understand. The other is that Turing machines are not conscious, in which case there's an unexplained phenomenon in how an object like the brain can give rise to consciousness. In that case, the question of whether a Turing machine could in principle emulate consciousness depends on what the cause of consciousness is. It's certainly possible, and doesn't even seem particularly unlikely, that we find that Turing machines cannot do this, and that something other than "computation" is needed.
- TuringTest 7y ago
  > Yes, we can't falsify that a Turing machine has conscious experience, but we have no reason or explanation to suggest that it does have one. I don't have no reason or explanation that suggests that you have a consciousness either. You could be a very elaborate chatbot that posts coherent replies at online forums. Also, I do know whether I'm a chatbot myself or not, but you can't tell about me just from the replies written here. > We may not "know" of such a thing with certainty, but we have a strong candidate in consciousness. The problem with that is, you don't have a test for consciousness. There's a strong candidate in MRI brain scans (at least for humans), but you can't really be sure.