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If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only

If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. But, by bringing them in we are not only teaching them how to be more skilled, but also teaching our society how to more efficiently take unskilled workers and bring them up to a highly skilled workers who can live a middle class life style like you or me. This is because the more you focus on something the better you are at it, even at a societal level. For example, a town living outside a desert is much more effective at preserving rainwater than one besides a jungle. So, after western society has learned how to take care of immigrants better, not only is it helping them, but helping itself as well.

yeheh2ue 7y ago
Your logic is idiotic.
golergka 7y ago
It is helping itself with a problem it created in the first place.
- topmonk 7y ago
  A man who lifts weights to build muscle doesn't consider the weights problems
Udik 7y ago
One could also say that having an abundance of a cheap, low quality resource, steers the economy into exploiting it instead of learning to use better alternatives. In the case of low-skilled immigrant workers, this means not being forced to improve processes and technologies, because you can rely on a lot of cheap, unskilled manual labour. Same logic, and I think a little bit less far-fetched than yours.
- topmonk 7y ago
  I didn't say economy, I said society. Society has a responsibility to take care of the people who live there. The capitalist economy would as soon leave them to rot, as take care of them.
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
In theory yes, but not in Amsterdam and the Randstad where there's too many people and too few schools. Not much chance of a middle class lifestyle there either, not with housing prices being what they are. It's a poverty lifestyle even if you manage to get a decent house; no wonder people are looking for fast, big money. Especially if they have family connections and can get away with it easily.
- topmonk 7y ago
  Can't that “not enough schools” change though?
mytailorisrich 7y ago
The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first, then we can see how to help through investments in Africa. All the "let's welcome immigrants" discourse might give warm feelings to some but it does not help solving the issues in the countries of origin, and it also creates social issues in the countries of destination. I think it would be much more helpful to e.g. have more students programs whereby bright young people from these countries can get visas and scholarships to study and get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards.
- topmonk 7y ago
  > The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young professionals as soon as they are flown back to their country from just getting sponsored by a company in another foreign country and then hopping on a plane again? What you're advocating for is a very weak attempt at finding a solution by doing much of the same. Unless society is pushed, it will never change. Immigration provides pressure for society to learn how to integrate poorer people, whether homegrown or foreign, helping everybody.
  - corporate_shi11 7y ago
    That's an incredibly naive and irresponsible approach to building a society. You're basically inviting a huge social challenge and stressor into otherwise perfectly functional and harmonious societies just to possibly further your own political and social agenda. You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve". The prosperous parts of the world are prosperous because the people living there made them prosperous. Unprosperous parts of the world could do the same if they followed the well worn path of development (law, order, stability, individuals working hard to learn and build business and enterprise, etc.) that all developed nations have followed.
consp 7y ago
> If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. Most people involved in these groups are either second or third generation children of immigrants who specifically came for work which was available in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's which were specifically targeted since there was a major lack of available manpower due to fast economic growth and reduced workforce (since there was a small war a decade or so ago). Unskilled maybe but they definitely had work.
- topmonk 7y ago
  They had miserable work and miserable lives. Your point being?

yeheh2ue 7y ago

Your logic is idiotic.

golergka 7y ago

It is helping itself with a problem it created in the first place.

topmonk 7y ago
A man who lifts weights to build muscle doesn't consider the weights problems

Udik 7y ago

One could also say that having an abundance of a cheap, low quality resource, steers the economy into exploiting it instead of learning to use better alternatives. In the case of low-skilled immigrant workers, this means not being forced to improve processes and technologies, because you can rely on a lot of cheap, unskilled manual labour. Same logic, and I think a little bit less far-fetched than yours.

topmonk 7y ago
I didn't say economy, I said society. Society has a responsibility to take care of the people who live there. The capitalist economy would as soon leave them to rot, as take care of them.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

In theory yes, but not in Amsterdam and the Randstad where there's too many people and too few schools. Not much chance of a middle class lifestyle there either, not with housing prices being what they are. It's a poverty lifestyle even if you manage to get a decent house; no wonder people are looking for fast, big money. Especially if they have family connections and can get away with it easily.

topmonk 7y ago
Can't that “not enough schools” change though?

mytailorisrich 7y ago

The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first, then we can see how to help through investments in Africa. All the "let's welcome immigrants" discourse might give warm feelings to some but it does not help solving the issues in the countries of origin, and it also creates social issues in the countries of destination. I think it would be much more helpful to e.g. have more students programs whereby bright young people from these countries can get visas and scholarships to study and get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards.

topmonk 7y ago
> The best way to help Africans is for Africans to help themselves in Africa first That's akin to telling a homeless person, “Get a job!” > ... creates social issues in the countries of destination. Social pressures, which may lead to solutions. > ...get a professional experience in Europe with the hard requirement that they must then return to their home countries afterwards. What's to prevent these bright young professionals as soon as they are flown back to their country from just getting sponsored by a company in another foreign country and then hopping on a plane again? What you're advocating for is a very weak attempt at finding a solution by doing much of the same. Unless society is pushed, it will never change. Immigration provides pressure for society to learn how to integrate poorer people, whether homegrown or foreign, helping everybody.
- corporate_shi11 7y ago
  That's an incredibly naive and irresponsible approach to building a society. You're basically inviting a huge social challenge and stressor into otherwise perfectly functional and harmonious societies just to possibly further your own political and social agenda. You're like an engineer who throws a few bugs into a functioning system because "it will force the system to improve". The prosperous parts of the world are prosperous because the people living there made them prosperous. Unprosperous parts of the world could do the same if they followed the well worn path of development (law, order, stability, individuals working hard to learn and build business and enterprise, etc.) that all developed nations have followed.

consp 7y ago

> If the unskilled young men were left in their home country, they would still be unskilled for the rest of their lives. Most people involved in these groups are either second or third generation children of immigrants who specifically came for work which was available in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's which were specifically targeted since there was a major lack of available manpower due to fast economic growth and reduced workforce (since there was a small war a decade or so ago). Unskilled maybe but they definitely had work.

topmonk 7y ago
They had miserable work and miserable lives. Your point being?