6 ms·

> and as long as this remains the case And how do you think this can change but by having projects whose main language is not English?

by arkh 7y ago

marvin 7y ago
Well, personally, and again in a non-culturally-imperialistic way, as a non-native English speaker who wants the world to work as smoothly and pragmatically as possible: I don't want this to change, because having a single lingua franca that's accepted internationally is the cheapest way to ensure that everyone can easily do business together. And I don't particularly relish the thought of learning a fourth language in order to get stuff done. (I currently speak Norwegian, English and French). But yes, as you say, the way for this to change is by having the majority of software projects written and documented in Chinese instead of English. This might eventually happen, but I think the more likely outcome is that we will have (at least) two disparate communities of developers, with a high communications overhead between them. This is sub-optimal with regards to international cooperation, but the most likely outcome. Might even turn out to be the most efficient way of moving the world forward, I wouldn't know. I'd bet against it, but not at any odds.
- SiempreViernes 7y ago
  > again in a non-culturally-imperialistic way You know, it doesn't change anything if while you steal something you are yelling "it's not theft". It works the same in other situations too, like when you argue all other cultures should speak the same language as you. Language barriers are inconvenient, but they can be overcome in well known ways, so they are certainly not the cause of breakdowns in international cooperation as all that is mostly done by multilingual people anyway.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    > all that is mostly done by multilingual people anyway. Indeed, and some of those multilingual people are developers bridging between the world of international software where English is the lingua franca and their own local communities where company-internal code doesn't need to have all documentation in English, even if that's the case for the open-source software it relies on. The bridge also works in the opposite direction, such that if you want to contribute your internal code to the international community, it's appropriate to provide them with English documentation. The TARS developers evidently realize that, their translation is just not fully done yet.
  - ElFitz 7y ago
    Eh... a lot of international cooperation is done in a single digit number of languages. That's why most international institutions, wether private or not, define 'official languages'. When it isn't, it often involves translators, in numbers ranging from a few to armies. Most software out there being freely supported by at most one person, do you really think any of them have the resources, time, to find multiple translators willing to work for free on translating their project? Or, heck, pay them on their own dime for it? No. So most developers know that if they do not work in a language that will be understood by most other developers, their work will essentially be useless to everyone, no matter how great it may be. Honestly, we're lucky to even have a lingua franca. It could be Egyptian hieroglyphs, for all I care. It just happens to be English. And that is fine by me.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
Transition periods suck. Like the scientists in the 18th century who had to know Latin, the old standard for science, as well as all the languages fighting to become the new standard until finally settling on English in the 20th C. And the postal agents who need to know French (still the official standard for the post, but deprecated since 1994), English and their local languages.

> and as long as this remains the case And how do you think this can change but by having projects whose main language is not English?

by arkh 7y ago

> and as long as this remains the case And how do you think this can change but by having projects whose main language is not English?

marvin 7y ago

Well, personally, and again in a non-culturally-imperialistic way, as a non-native English speaker who wants the world to work as smoothly and pragmatically as possible: I don't want this to change, because having a single lingua franca that's accepted internationally is the cheapest way to ensure that everyone can easily do business together. And I don't particularly relish the thought of learning a fourth language in order to get stuff done. (I currently speak Norwegian, English and French). But yes, as you say, the way for this to change is by having the majority of software projects written and documented in Chinese instead of English. This might eventually happen, but I think the more likely outcome is that we will have (at least) two disparate communities of developers, with a high communications overhead between them. This is sub-optimal with regards to international cooperation, but the most likely outcome. Might even turn out to be the most efficient way of moving the world forward, I wouldn't know. I'd bet against it, but not at any odds.

SiempreViernes 7y ago
> again in a non-culturally-imperialistic way You know, it doesn't change anything if while you steal something you are yelling "it's not theft". It works the same in other situations too, like when you argue all other cultures should speak the same language as you. Language barriers are inconvenient, but they can be overcome in well known ways, so they are certainly not the cause of breakdowns in international cooperation as all that is mostly done by multilingual people anyway.
- yorwba 7y ago
  > all that is mostly done by multilingual people anyway. Indeed, and some of those multilingual people are developers bridging between the world of international software where English is the lingua franca and their own local communities where company-internal code doesn't need to have all documentation in English, even if that's the case for the open-source software it relies on. The bridge also works in the opposite direction, such that if you want to contribute your internal code to the international community, it's appropriate to provide them with English documentation. The TARS developers evidently realize that, their translation is just not fully done yet.
- ElFitz 7y ago
  Eh... a lot of international cooperation is done in a single digit number of languages. That's why most international institutions, wether private or not, define 'official languages'. When it isn't, it often involves translators, in numbers ranging from a few to armies. Most software out there being freely supported by at most one person, do you really think any of them have the resources, time, to find multiple translators willing to work for free on translating their project? Or, heck, pay them on their own dime for it? No. So most developers know that if they do not work in a language that will be understood by most other developers, their work will essentially be useless to everyone, no matter how great it may be. Honestly, we're lucky to even have a lingua franca. It could be Egyptian hieroglyphs, for all I care. It just happens to be English. And that is fine by me.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

Transition periods suck. Like the scientists in the 18th century who had to know Latin, the old standard for science, as well as all the languages fighting to become the new standard until finally settling on English in the 20th C. And the postal agents who need to know French (still the official standard for the post, but deprecated since 1994), English and their local languages.