8 ms·

Microsoft couldn't do it because everyone new (of the users) that even if they put in their effort to switch and wait for the ecosystem to grow, they will end u

Microsoft couldn't do it because everyone new (of the users) that even if they put in their effort to switch and wait for the ecosystem to grow, they will end up with just the same crap: another closed-source monopoly with it's own quirks. We won't have just two overlords, but instead 3 of the same. Wow such a difference... Now an truly open system might make a difference. Not saying it will, it has it's own problems, but comparing it to Windows Phone is not really apples to apples.

dmitriid 7y ago
You greatly overestimate the number of users who care about how closed or how open an ecosystem is. If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source. Microsoft had sunk billions into trying to get the ecosystem off the ground. What makes you think that "a truly open system" will get that ecosystem?
- valvar 7y ago
  The target audience isn't people who need to use Skype, Snapchat, or Uber. But I'm sure it will be possible to run some of those android apps through anbox. Spotify has a Linux client, and for YouTube there's the FreeTube client, which actually protects users' integrity.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21834172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21834172
    - valvar 7y ago
      What's your point? They are very aware that they are targeting a niche market.
- zdkl 7y ago
  (Hopefully) Ease and flexibility of development for 3rd party applications?
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    Do people really complain about ease and flexibility of development for iOS and Android?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      In regards to Android, it is more lack of thereof.
- unionpivo 7y ago
  it doesn't have to. All it really needs to do is make calls and have good browser (Firefox would do). Signal would be a nice bonus. This might not be enough for all (i am sure it wont), but for me and several other people I know, it would be enough, to be our main phone.
  - dmitriid 7y ago
    That's how Openmoko sold a grand total of 13000 phones. Not enough to even cover the cost of production, most likely. The market you're describing is minuscule.
- thekyle 7y ago
  > If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source. Most of this should be available on the PinePhone at launch (albeit not as nicely as on Android). Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway) YouTube - website again (youtube.com) Skype - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (web.skype.com) Uber - has a PWA that can be used for booking rides (m.uber.com) Spotify - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (open.spotify.com)
  - _-o-_ 7y ago
    > Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway) In my experience mobile banking is more often than not provided via app exclusively.
    - thekyle 7y ago
      What are some American banks that don't have a website but have an app? I'm curious.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        BofA, the bank that most Americans use, doesn't support mobile check deposit outside of the native app.
        thekyle 7y ago
        I have an account with Bank of America and was not aware of this so thanks. That said, you can do pretty much everything else via the website. The opposite is also probably true, that there are some features on the website not available on the app (for example can you open a new CD in the app?).
    - jdright 7y ago
      Funnily enough, my last bank and two current ones, the app is increasingly a front for a mobile web version. With each new update I see more functionality moving to web.
- thenewnewguy 7y ago
  People on HN seem to hate them, but honestly progressive web apps have potential to solve most/all of those usecases.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    I love them, thanks to it I have refocused on mobile Web, even though I tend to prefer native apps. For traditional CRUD apps, PWAs are quite alright, and one avoids having to deal with Android's always changing "best practices", with a stagnant Android Java.
rasvj 7y ago
You overestimate how many people care about whether something is open or closed source. I had a Windows Phone. It was bad. Even Microsoft apps were subpar. Skype app was simply unusable. They weren't dogfooding. Also Google torpedoed it.
- alpaca128 7y ago
  In my opinion Windows Phone 8 is still far ahead of Android in terms of usability. It has at least 3 features I wish Google would just copy. Pretty much all the apps were bad though, I agree. Even the official OneNote app was a joke compared to the Android version.
- asveikau 7y ago
  The third party app platform was pretty slow and missing a lot of APIs relative to the others. The first party UI, which got praise from reviewers for being smooth, was written in a different language and framework. In the first version, the default blank app from Visual Studio's "new project" wizard was slow to load. I think I measured it on the order of 500ms at the time. Not much room for third parties to add more stuff without being slow.
- wiz21c 7y ago
  The only question I'd ask is : how many phones should they sell to break even ? Cos if they actually make some profit, that's just fine. Maybe they don't aim to go to mass market. And that's why MSFT may have failed : they tried to fight on Google's ground, head to head. Of course Pine can't do that. So if they just repeat what's been done for Raspberry, that's just great enough to have a living ecosystem. I personaly just need SMS, voice and a browser. The rest, I can live without it (or program it :-)

dmitriid 7y ago

You greatly overestimate the number of users who care about how closed or how open an ecosystem is. If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source. Microsoft had sunk billions into trying to get the ecosystem off the ground. What makes you think that "a truly open system" will get that ecosystem?

valvar 7y ago
The target audience isn't people who need to use Skype, Snapchat, or Uber. But I'm sure it will be possible to run some of those android apps through anbox. Spotify has a Linux client, and for YouTube there's the FreeTube client, which actually protects users' integrity.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21834172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21834172
  - valvar 7y ago
    What's your point? They are very aware that they are targeting a niche market.
zdkl 7y ago
(Hopefully) Ease and flexibility of development for 3rd party applications?
- dmitriid 7y ago
  Do people really complain about ease and flexibility of development for iOS and Android?
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    In regards to Android, it is more lack of thereof.
unionpivo 7y ago
it doesn't have to. All it really needs to do is make calls and have good browser (Firefox would do). Signal would be a nice bonus. This might not be enough for all (i am sure it wont), but for me and several other people I know, it would be enough, to be our main phone.
- dmitriid 7y ago
  That's how Openmoko sold a grand total of 13000 phones. Not enough to even cover the cost of production, most likely. The market you're describing is minuscule.
thekyle 7y ago
> If the user can't interact with their bank, whatchu YouTube, talk to their friends and parents over Snapchat or Skype, call Uber, play Spotify, etc etc etc, it doesn't matter in the least if your phone is 100% open source. Most of this should be available on the PinePhone at launch (albeit not as nicely as on Android). Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway) YouTube - website again (youtube.com) Skype - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (web.skype.com) Uber - has a PWA that can be used for booking rides (m.uber.com) Spotify - has a web app and a Electron app available for Linux (open.spotify.com)
- _-o-_ 7y ago
  > Bank - should have a website (and if they don't have a website they most likely don't have an app anyway) In my experience mobile banking is more often than not provided via app exclusively.
  - thekyle 7y ago
    What are some American banks that don't have a website but have an app? I'm curious.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      BofA, the bank that most Americans use, doesn't support mobile check deposit outside of the native app.
      - thekyle 7y ago
        I have an account with Bank of America and was not aware of this so thanks. That said, you can do pretty much everything else via the website. The opposite is also probably true, that there are some features on the website not available on the app (for example can you open a new CD in the app?).
  - jdright 7y ago
    Funnily enough, my last bank and two current ones, the app is increasingly a front for a mobile web version. With each new update I see more functionality moving to web.
thenewnewguy 7y ago
People on HN seem to hate them, but honestly progressive web apps have potential to solve most/all of those usecases.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  I love them, thanks to it I have refocused on mobile Web, even though I tend to prefer native apps. For traditional CRUD apps, PWAs are quite alright, and one avoids having to deal with Android's always changing "best practices", with a stagnant Android Java.

rasvj 7y ago

You overestimate how many people care about whether something is open or closed source. I had a Windows Phone. It was bad. Even Microsoft apps were subpar. Skype app was simply unusable. They weren't dogfooding. Also Google torpedoed it.

alpaca128 7y ago
In my opinion Windows Phone 8 is still far ahead of Android in terms of usability. It has at least 3 features I wish Google would just copy. Pretty much all the apps were bad though, I agree. Even the official OneNote app was a joke compared to the Android version.
asveikau 7y ago
The third party app platform was pretty slow and missing a lot of APIs relative to the others. The first party UI, which got praise from reviewers for being smooth, was written in a different language and framework. In the first version, the default blank app from Visual Studio's "new project" wizard was slow to load. I think I measured it on the order of 500ms at the time. Not much room for third parties to add more stuff without being slow.
wiz21c 7y ago
The only question I'd ask is : how many phones should they sell to break even ? Cos if they actually make some profit, that's just fine. Maybe they don't aim to go to mass market. And that's why MSFT may have failed : they tried to fight on Google's ground, head to head. Of course Pine can't do that. So if they just repeat what's been done for Raspberry, that's just great enough to have a living ecosystem. I personaly just need SMS, voice and a browser. The rest, I can live without it (or program it :-)