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Have some empathy! I've seen a trend where rants against the modern web often get upvoted lots on Hacker News. Consider this quote from the article: > I make n

Have some empathy! I've seen a trend where rants against the modern web often get upvoted lots on Hacker News. Consider this quote from the article: > I make no secret of hating the mouse. I think it's a crime. I think it's stifling humanitys progress, a gimmick we can't get over. Does the world's typical computer user today hate the mouse, and prefer a keyboard-only interface (CLI)? No -- in fact, command-line interfaces are less discoverable and harder to use, starting out. Even as a programmer, I struggle to remember the flags to many common command line utilities Sure, the author's example of a cashier's checkout console might be great as a text-only interface -- cashiers use it day-in, day-out, and can learn all the keyboard shortcuts in a day. But what about the self-checkout machines that shoppers use maybe once a week? Would you rather have every person have to learn a list of keyboard commands while navigating a two-color interface? Does the modern web poorly serve the author, who's good enough with technology to master any UI? Sure! But the modern web works better for the billions who otherwise would not have started using it in the first place

aidenn0 7y ago
I've never seen a self checkout machine with a mouse.
- RicardoLuis0 7y ago
  mouse or touchscreen, the point still stands
  - aidenn0 7y ago
    If we are talking about how intuitive an interface is, I strongly disagree. I remember in the 90s seeing people learn to use a mouse that had never used a mouse before. There's a definite learning curve. A touchscreen with large enough targets and low enough parallax is a different story.
arbie 7y ago
Keyboard-only input is not antithetical to discoverability. You can have a menu system (including top-menu bar) with clear hotkeys displayed.
yosamino 7y ago
> command-line interfaces are less discoverable and harder to use, starting out. Even as a programmer, I struggle to remember the flags to many common command line utilities Not to disagree with the general point you're making, but autocompletion of commands just using the tab command is how CLIs get discoverability and it's kind of cool. Whenever I "don't know" I just 'cmd -<tab><tab>' and suddenly I am presented ith a list of options that I can filter by continuing to type the option I suspect I need, or tab to the one that I see on screen. Then if that requires an argument <tab><tab> it let's me select the, for example, file that is needed as the argument.
- Const-me 7y ago
  > Whenever I "don't know" I just 'cmd -<tab><tab>' and suddenly I am presented ith a list of options You assume you already know which `cmd` to type. Most users don't.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
> But the modern web works better for the billions who otherwise would not have started using it in the first place We need to start talking about expected utility. For software that's used briefly and once in a blue moon, it's perhaps not worth the effort to make the UI particularly ergonomic. Most web pages fall into this category - the random e-commerce shop or pizza delivery service you're using today. It would be nice if the UI wasn't actively user-hostile, but it's not critical. The problem is with software used regularly, for extended periods of time. Like, during a work day. A very large part of the world's population interacts with software at work. A lot of them sit in front of a small set of programs 8+ hours a day, day in, day out. For example, a word processor + e-mail program + IM + e-commerce platform manager + inventory manger. That software needs to be as ergonomic as possible, otherwise it's literally wasting people's life (and their employers' money). Such software needs to be keyboard-operable, otherwise it's just making people suffer. A lot of software falls into this category. If you're doing a startup that is meant to, or even conceivably can be used in a business, you probably have some full-time users. You probably want those full-time users. If so, then for the love of $deity make it more like that old DOS POS than the hip mobile-on-desktop web garbage. Otherwise you're wasting people's health, money and sanity.

aidenn0 7y ago

I've never seen a self checkout machine with a mouse.

RicardoLuis0 7y ago
mouse or touchscreen, the point still stands
- aidenn0 7y ago
  If we are talking about how intuitive an interface is, I strongly disagree. I remember in the 90s seeing people learn to use a mouse that had never used a mouse before. There's a definite learning curve. A touchscreen with large enough targets and low enough parallax is a different story.

arbie 7y ago

Keyboard-only input is not antithetical to discoverability. You can have a menu system (including top-menu bar) with clear hotkeys displayed.

yosamino 7y ago

> command-line interfaces are less discoverable and harder to use, starting out. Even as a programmer, I struggle to remember the flags to many common command line utilities Not to disagree with the general point you're making, but autocompletion of commands just using the tab command is how CLIs get discoverability and it's kind of cool. Whenever I "don't know" I just 'cmd -<tab><tab>' and suddenly I am presented ith a list of options that I can filter by continuing to type the option I suspect I need, or tab to the one that I see on screen. Then if that requires an argument <tab><tab> it let's me select the, for example, file that is needed as the argument.

Const-me 7y ago
> Whenever I "don't know" I just 'cmd -<tab><tab>' and suddenly I am presented ith a list of options You assume you already know which `cmd` to type. Most users don't.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

> But the modern web works better for the billions who otherwise would not have started using it in the first place We need to start talking about expected utility. For software that's used briefly and once in a blue moon, it's perhaps not worth the effort to make the UI particularly ergonomic. Most web pages fall into this category - the random e-commerce shop or pizza delivery service you're using today. It would be nice if the UI wasn't actively user-hostile, but it's not critical. The problem is with software used regularly, for extended periods of time. Like, during a work day. A very large part of the world's population interacts with software at work. A lot of them sit in front of a small set of programs 8+ hours a day, day in, day out. For example, a word processor + e-mail program + IM + e-commerce platform manager + inventory manger. That software needs to be as ergonomic as possible, otherwise it's literally wasting people's life (and their employers' money). Such software needs to be keyboard-operable, otherwise it's just making people suffer. A lot of software falls into this category. If you're doing a startup that is meant to, or even conceivably can be used in a business, you probably have some full-time users. You probably want those full-time users. If so, then for the love of $deity make it more like that old DOS POS than the hip mobile-on-desktop web garbage. Otherwise you're wasting people's health, money and sanity.