4 ms·

You do not deserve the downvotes. Just because the purifier takes particulates out of the air doesn’t mean the effects on humans isn’t placebo

mc3 7y ago
This seems ripe for placebo. Installing purifier and indeed measuring lower PM, means naturally you feel less worried and more relaxed!
- coldtea 7y ago
  On the other hand, measuring lower PM is indeed a quantifiable metric.
  - mc3 7y ago
    Yeah it depends what question you are trying to answer: 1. Does my air purifier filter out PM2.5? or 2. Dos lower PM2.5 make me sleep better? For #1 there is no placebo effect (there is no human element!)
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  It's time to hire someone to maybe break the filter somewhen for a duration. And hack the meter to report invalid data.
  - insickness 7y ago
    I've always thought it would be an interesting service where someone did this with medication/supplements. They sent you supplies of both the real and sugar pill meds for a certain duration and you recorded how you felt.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Generally, denying people access to healthcare in for the sake of experimentation is unethical.
sooheon 7y ago
Sure, but this is misplaced skepticism. There have been many studies attesting to the harms of PM 2.5 and the benefits of intervention. The onus isn't on a single consumer to set up a double blind, randomized test for himself, the onus is on you to simply google for the many that have been already done. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-1572OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-157... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-069X-12-116 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-06...
- throwawaylolx 7y ago
  Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.
  - sooheon 7y ago
    There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?
    - throwawaylolx 7y ago
      >Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach? I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of. In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would say it's very reasonable to ask someone to elaborate on why they are so convinced that their method of treatment is not a placebo for sleep quality. No one is saying they have to "prove" it--they can just elaborate on their conviction: perhaps OP had many insomnnia treatments before and this was the only one that showed efficiency. Not a proof, but it is some circumstatial evidence. On the other hand, maybe OP is not aware how effective placebos are, in which case his statement may be too strong to straight-out declare that "it's not a placebo effect."

mc3 7y ago

This seems ripe for placebo. Installing purifier and indeed measuring lower PM, means naturally you feel less worried and more relaxed!

coldtea 7y ago
On the other hand, measuring lower PM is indeed a quantifiable metric.
- mc3 7y ago
  Yeah it depends what question you are trying to answer: 1. Does my air purifier filter out PM2.5? or 2. Dos lower PM2.5 make me sleep better? For #1 there is no placebo effect (there is no human element!)
AstralStorm 7y ago
It's time to hire someone to maybe break the filter somewhen for a duration. And hack the meter to report invalid data.
- insickness 7y ago
  I've always thought it would be an interesting service where someone did this with medication/supplements. They sent you supplies of both the real and sugar pill meds for a certain duration and you recorded how you felt.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Generally, denying people access to healthcare in for the sake of experimentation is unethical.

sooheon 7y ago

Sure, but this is misplaced skepticism. There have been many studies attesting to the harms of PM 2.5 and the benefits of intervention. The onus isn't on a single consumer to set up a double blind, randomized test for himself, the onus is on you to simply google for the many that have been already done. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822112406.h... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26022815/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-1572OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.201010-157... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3165134/ https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632OC https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200704-632... https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-069X-12-116 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-06...

throwawaylolx 7y ago
Just because it has an effect on the average person doesn't mean it must have an effect on every person. It can still be a placebo for any one individual, and I don't see the harm of asking how does one double-check if the effect is real or not.
- sooheon 7y ago
  There isn't much harm, there just isn't much point either. We don't usually interrogate people's assumptions down to axioms and provable claims, because it's impossible to live that way. Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach?
  - throwawaylolx 7y ago
    >Do you have personal experimental data to prove that eating handfuls of mud is likely to hurt your stomach? I do have evidence that eating mud is likely to hurt my stomach: the relevant body of literature showing that this is a likely event for the population I'm part of. In OP's case, however, considering that the relevant body of litetuare shows that placebos are very effective for improving sleep quality, I would say it's very reasonable to ask someone to elaborate on why they are so convinced that their method of treatment is not a placebo for sleep quality. No one is saying they have to "prove" it--they can just elaborate on their conviction: perhaps OP had many insomnnia treatments before and this was the only one that showed efficiency. Not a proof, but it is some circumstatial evidence. On the other hand, maybe OP is not aware how effective placebos are, in which case his statement may be too strong to straight-out declare that "it's not a placebo effect."