4 ms·

Besides this particular case, I wonder which other FISA applications were manipulated with exaggerated or fabricated evidence? FISA court is known for rubber-st

Besides this particular case, I wonder which other FISA applications were manipulated with exaggerated or fabricated evidence? FISA court is known for rubber-stamping applications, they approve at like a 90% rate thousands of requests to spy on citizens. Process changes are necessary but only criminal charges are gonna deter future abuse. How is the court supposed to know an email or a 302 was doctored? Process change can't fix that.

wavefunction 7y ago
I don't find this particular case all that illustrative. These folks were palling around with known foreign intelligence assets from a country whose government is definitely a hostile aggressor. I'd be more sympathetic to some low-level drug dealer scooped up through parallel-reconstruction. Still, even scum like Carter Page deserve their rights and protections.
- creaghpatr 7y ago
  It's impossible to know how illustrative it is because FISA warrants are rarely declassified or confirmed to exist except to the intel committees and the agencies themselves.
  - wavefunction 7y ago
    Perhaps I was offering my opinion and not some sort of eternal truth.
- evunveot 7y ago
  > scum like Carter Page All I know about Carter Page is he was falsely painted as a spy for Russia by the FBI and compliant media organizations for several years, even after the FBI knew he had been working with the CIA. Not sure what makes him the scum in that equation.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    There is a frenzy of attorneys trying to attach themselves to Mr. Page's multimillion-dollar lawsuit for slander and libel. All of the big news firms will be paying for his vacation homes.
at-fates-hands 7y ago
It's actually closer to 99%. I think I heard they only rejected one warrant in the last calendar year. Its surprising that it's taken something of this magnitude for people to realize this the whole idea of the FISC is a very bad idea. I know the original idea was to use against terrorist organizations and individuals who they knew were terrorists, but the extensive use of warrantless searches against US Citizens is a very, very dangerous thing.
- creaghpatr 7y ago
  At a minimum we gotta get rid of the 2 or 3 hops permitted of the surveillance; theoretically, most of the campaign's communications could have been swept up in the collection process and examined by investigators. More about the '2 or 3 hops': https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/fbi-s-secret-warrant-surveil-carter-page-should-scare-all-ncna852131 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/fbi-s-secret-warrant-s...
- vkou 7y ago
  > It's actually closer to 99%. Folks often bring out this number, as if it is something to be outraged about. What do you think is the rate at which non-secret courts approve warrants? In Utah, the approval rate is 98%. [1] Warrants have always been a rubber-stamp process - the main purpose of which is to create a paper trail, and to prevent wide-reaching fishing expeditions. [1] https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/14/warrants-approved-in-just-minutes-are-utah-judges-really-reading-them-before-signing-off/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/14/warrants-approved-in-...
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    A paper trail is less useful to the public when every document is classified. There is little reason to suspect that the FISA court has prevented "wide-reaching fishing expeditions".
    - vkou 7y ago
      All currently known evidence indicates that the FISA-stamped warrants that were sent out to tech companies were targeted, in that they identified particular individuals that should be surveilled. So, yes, FISA did seem to accomplish one of the two purposes of warrants. I agree that a secret paper trail isn't particularly useful.

wavefunction 7y ago

I don't find this particular case all that illustrative. These folks were palling around with known foreign intelligence assets from a country whose government is definitely a hostile aggressor. I'd be more sympathetic to some low-level drug dealer scooped up through parallel-reconstruction. Still, even scum like Carter Page deserve their rights and protections.

creaghpatr 7y ago
It's impossible to know how illustrative it is because FISA warrants are rarely declassified or confirmed to exist except to the intel committees and the agencies themselves.
- wavefunction 7y ago
  Perhaps I was offering my opinion and not some sort of eternal truth.
evunveot 7y ago
> scum like Carter Page All I know about Carter Page is he was falsely painted as a spy for Russia by the FBI and compliant media organizations for several years, even after the FBI knew he had been working with the CIA. Not sure what makes him the scum in that equation.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  There is a frenzy of attorneys trying to attach themselves to Mr. Page's multimillion-dollar lawsuit for slander and libel. All of the big news firms will be paying for his vacation homes.

at-fates-hands 7y ago

It's actually closer to 99%. I think I heard they only rejected one warrant in the last calendar year. Its surprising that it's taken something of this magnitude for people to realize this the whole idea of the FISC is a very bad idea. I know the original idea was to use against terrorist organizations and individuals who they knew were terrorists, but the extensive use of warrantless searches against US Citizens is a very, very dangerous thing.

creaghpatr 7y ago
At a minimum we gotta get rid of the 2 or 3 hops permitted of the surveillance; theoretically, most of the campaign's communications could have been swept up in the collection process and examined by investigators. More about the '2 or 3 hops': https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/fbi-s-secret-warrant-surveil-carter-page-should-scare-all-ncna852131 https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/fbi-s-secret-warrant-s...
vkou 7y ago
> It's actually closer to 99%. Folks often bring out this number, as if it is something to be outraged about. What do you think is the rate at which non-secret courts approve warrants? In Utah, the approval rate is 98%. [1] Warrants have always been a rubber-stamp process - the main purpose of which is to create a paper trail, and to prevent wide-reaching fishing expeditions. [1] https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/14/warrants-approved-in-just-minutes-are-utah-judges-really-reading-them-before-signing-off/ https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/01/14/warrants-approved-in-...
- jessaustin 7y ago
  A paper trail is less useful to the public when every document is classified. There is little reason to suspect that the FISA court has prevented "wide-reaching fishing expeditions".
  - vkou 7y ago
    All currently known evidence indicates that the FISA-stamped warrants that were sent out to tech companies were targeted, in that they identified particular individuals that should be surveilled. So, yes, FISA did seem to accomplish one of the two purposes of warrants. I agree that a secret paper trail isn't particularly useful.