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Re Accuracy Concerns Regarding FBI Matters Submitted to the FISC [pdf]
- floatingatoll 7y agoOne relevant paragraph from the middle of this court order directed at the FBI: > The FBI's handling of the Carter Page applications, as portrayed in the OIG report, was antithetical to the heightened duty of candor described above. The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable. The FISC expects the government to provide complete and accurate information in every filing with the Court. Without it, the FISC cannot properly ensure that the government conducts electronic surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes only when there is a sufficient factual basis.
- pkilgore 7y agoI only wish this is how we would treat every case for a warrant. But it is not [1]. For us regular folk, this is Franks v. Delaware. To be “material,” a lie or omission has to change the result. So, if the omitted information were added, or the lie deleted, the remainder of the information has to be insufficient to get the warrant. The problem is that the standard (usually probable cause) is so easy to meet that it can be met even with the lie deleted, or omitted information included. So it’s rare for even a blatant lie or deceitful omission to be material, and thus overturn the warrant. If, on the other hand, you lie to the government... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks_v._Delaware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks_v._Delaware
- pkilgore 7y agoThere are very few things in life that will fuck up your day faster than lying to a Federal Judge, example N. [N-1] https://twitter.com/obarcala/status/1192193014350991360 https://twitter.com/obarcala/status/1192193014350991360 [N-2] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/prenda-hammered-judge-sends-porn-trolling-lawyers-to-criminal-investigators/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/05/prenda-hammered-... .....
- rufus_3 7y agoIt's different if you live in the Beltway, attend the same cocktail parties as the federal judge you're lying to, and have children who attend the same private schools.
- pkilgore 7y agoI presume FISA courts are in D.C., so I suppose this could be true. But judges, ADAs, Federal justice employees live in, and work closely together in, hundreds of localities across the USA. No ADA/Agent in any of them ever have stories that start with "A judge found out I (even sorta kinda) lied" that ended well for everyone involved.
- jessaustin 7y agoDoJ lies all the time. The judges know this. The system does not exist to police itself.
- pkilgore 7y agoThose are two different systems, so it's not clear what you are trying to say, other than, like, burn it all down man.
- jessaustin 7y agoIn the public courts, DoJ lies with impunity. It's very difficult for defendants to escape with their freedom; holding federal prosecutors responsible for their misdeeds is the last thing on their minds. In the FISA courts, DoJ lies with impunity. The judges occasionally throw a warrant back and tell them to try harder, but mostly DGAF, because no publicity. Now there is publicity, and suddenly a judge cares... I am an anarchist, so I oppose all arbitrary authority. If burning will solve these problems, then let's burn. If not, let's do something else.
- at-fates-hands 7y ago
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y agoI need to read this and find the context because I am unsure about how to feel about this.
- derision 7y agoAn FBI lawyer changed an email that said Carter Page was a source to say Page was "not a source"
- TMWNN 7y agoMore to the point, Page was a source to the CIA, and had been for years, by reporting on his meetings with Russians. The FBI knew this, but specifically altered evidence to hide this from FISA when seeking a warrant to spy on him (and, thus, the Trump campaign).
- AmericanChopper 7y agoDon’t worry. The post has been flagged so you don’t need to think about it anymore.
- offmycloud 7y agoFrom the first page: > A finding of probable cause to believe that a U.S. citizen (or other "United States person" as defined at Section 1803(i)) is an agent of a foreign power cannot be solely based on activities protected by the First Amendment.
- creaghpatr 7y agoBesides this particular case, I wonder which other FISA applications were manipulated with exaggerated or fabricated evidence? FISA court is known for rubber-stamping applications, they approve at like a 90% rate thousands of requests to spy on citizens. Process changes are necessary but only criminal charges are gonna deter future abuse. How is the court supposed to know an email or a 302 was doctored? Process change can't fix that.
- wavefunction 7y agoI don't find this particular case all that illustrative. These folks were palling around with known foreign intelligence assets from a country whose government is definitely a hostile aggressor. I'd be more sympathetic to some low-level drug dealer scooped up through parallel-reconstruction. Still, even scum like Carter Page deserve their rights and protections.
- creaghpatr 7y agoIt's impossible to know how illustrative it is because FISA warrants are rarely declassified or confirmed to exist except to the intel committees and the agencies themselves.
- wavefunction 7y agoPerhaps I was offering my opinion and not some sort of eternal truth.
- evunveot 7y ago> scum like Carter Page All I know about Carter Page is he was falsely painted as a spy for Russia by the FBI and compliant media organizations for several years, even after the FBI knew he had been working with the CIA. Not sure what makes him the scum in that equation.
- jessaustin 7y agoThere is a frenzy of attorneys trying to attach themselves to Mr. Page's multimillion-dollar lawsuit for slander and libel. All of the big news firms will be paying for his vacation homes.
- hereme888 7y agoI hope someone goes to jail. How else will this deter future abuses? Americans are tired of people in positions of real power receiving preferential treatment.
- newguy1234 7y agoAs far as I am concerned the 4th amendment has been mostly stripped to a relic of the past. If you want protection from search/seizure then you must educate yourself on how to guarantee it absolutely as a matter of technology.
- jessaustin 7y agoI thought it was cool that this appeared on the front page for me even though it was already [flagged]. I can actually see why it's flagged; of mostly political import with very little technical detail.
- AmericanChopper 7y agoIt’s pretty obviously just flagged for violating the permitted narratives. If this document is ‘of mostly political import’, then this[0] one most certainly is. Though I think it’s pretty funny how this scandal has mutated from a “far-right conspiracy theory” to “FISA courts are obviously being political”. Really this is just a CYA move to heap all the blame onto the FBI, but it’s hard to try and claim this isn’t relevant when it’s sharing the front page with threads like this[1], where the top comment thread is discussing FISA courts as a solution to litigating against the government. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19762811 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19762811 [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21826567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21826567
- jessaustin 7y agoI mostly agree, but assuming you're talking about this [0] I think that's an uncharitable reading. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21829759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21829759