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> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without usi

> unless the buyers choose to stop using the minerals altogether. BINGO. That's what you do. If the ass end of Mogadishu can't provide the minerals without using exploitative labor practices, THEN DON'T BUY FROM THE ASS END OF MOGADISHU. And if that means an iPhone costs $200 more then that's what it fucking means, because no iPhone is worth it's weight in human suffering to have.

solidasparagus 7y ago
This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  > This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. So because we can't fix their situation for them, we're allowed to actively make it worse? This is such a nonsense point of view. Exploitative industry is not like regular industry. This is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, this is enriching one or two psychopathic monsters at the expense of their entire region, and possibly financing even more in other regions. The West does not need to go in and "fix" every developing nation, but at the same time, saying "well if we didn't sell them scrapheap ships or buy the minerals their children mine, they'd starve" is a complete abdication of responsibility for the role the demand for those minerals plays in their situation. They mine them because they can sell them, that's the whole point. If you remove the entities buying them, then there's no reason to mine them.
  - solidasparagus 7y ago
    It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. Until you can do that, offering 'stop buying' as a solution is a waste of time.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      I don't think people even realize where Cobalt is used. But they'd notice in a hurry if the supply was somehow interrupted.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      > It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. "Realistic" is determined entirely by the values of the overarching system. The fate of the people at the long tail of the supply lines isn't valued. That's the single, solitary reason that this shit is still happening. Change that, and the system will adapt. The mines will get better, or they will be replaced with other mines that do it properly. Stop settling for what your corporate overlords tell you is doable. We can do anything as a species if we choose to, good or bad. Our history shows it. Industry has every reason to tell you it's impossible because they don't want to spend the money to insure supply lines are ethically handled. If we can mine coal in the United States without children and with relative safety, they can mine Cobalt in the same damn way. Cobalt doesn't by virtue of being cobalt need to be pried from the Earth by children.
      - solidasparagus 7y ago
        How would you suggest we start? Real, concrete steps please.
        FussyZeus 7y ago
        You add regulation to businesses based in the US and that sell in the US specifying, explicitly, that they cannot use resources mined via exploitative practices. And then when businesses do anyway, because they will, you confiscate profits tied to products that were made that way. Repeat until they get the damn point.
      - celticmusic 7y ago
        > If we can mine coal in the United States without children and with relative safety, they can mine Cobalt in the same damn way. Cobalt doesn't by virtue of being cobalt need to be pried from the Earth by children. oh you didn't know? The blood of the children is what christens the cobalt such that it works in computers... /sarcasm
- yters 7y ago
  The 'someone will do it anyway' defense is not morally legitimate. Just because everyone else is doing it, does not make the action ok. Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come."
  - solidasparagus 7y ago
    I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.
    - yters 7y ago
      How does 'continue buying unethically sourced cobalt' improve the state of things? Ideally, it is a dual solution of don't buy the unethical kind, and set up an alternate ethical supply chain to the same region so workers can switch to a better work place. But, if the latter is not possible, one can at least help decrease the market for unethical cobalt by ceasing purchase. Plus, it is not a matter of seeming morally superior. If one option is morally better than another, it should be chosen, regardless of the consequences. So, for instance, if Jesus is correct, that it is immoral to be a path of scandal, then one should choose to not be a path of scandal, even if the state of the world otherwise remains unchanged (e.g. unethical cobalt mining continues).
      - bluGill 7y ago
        In what situation? In the case of Cobalt it probably doesn't. In the case of rubber the big companies do provide better jobs for the families they employ than anything else, ensure the family gets modern medical care (as opposed to "witch doctor" care anyone not working for them gets), and the children do go to school and so have the ability to get a better job latter. The companies looks the other way in harvest season then families are taking their kids with them to work, so long as the kids are in school. Child labor for sure, but you can honestly argue that the children are better off despite that. You can decide if you accept that as better or not, but it is a reasonable argument that child labor isn't always the worst possible. Sadly I don't think in the case of cobalt the above applies.
- ticmasta 7y ago
  I appreciate your measured and informative responses that are not pure opinion but everyone else in the thread is adding nothing but gut-impulse emotional opinions. Cut your losses.
celticmusic 7y ago
seriously. How the fuck are people's moral compass so off? I understand reality is reality, but there are some things that should not be, and for slightly cheaper electronics of all things? fuck that.
- bryan_w 7y ago
  I mean, you typed that message using something that probably has cobalt inside of it or used cobalt in it's manufacturing. So... why is your moral compass so off?
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    We're told that governments help us solve collective action problems. If it's hard for a single electronics manufacturer to wean itself from conflict cobalt, the government could help them by forcing all electronics manufacturers to cease purchase of conflict cobalt. Of course, that isn't the real purpose of governments or any other illegitimate authorities, so I won't hold my breath.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    https://i.imgur.com/4KZe4UO.png https://i.imgur.com/4KZe4UO.png
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    oh please, I reject that argument outright. This is about stopping the exploitation of children. While you're trying to squabble over whether or not some random internet person is using a keyboard with cobalt in it, children are being forced down into these mines and risking their lives. Get your priorities straight.

solidasparagus 7y ago

This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. Demand is not going anywhere. You're also insultingly wrong with your geography.

FussyZeus 7y ago
> This is one of those feel-good solutions that lets us feel superior but doesn't actually help the people suffering. So because we can't fix their situation for them, we're allowed to actively make it worse? This is such a nonsense point of view. Exploitative industry is not like regular industry. This is not a rising tide that lifts all boats, this is enriching one or two psychopathic monsters at the expense of their entire region, and possibly financing even more in other regions. The West does not need to go in and "fix" every developing nation, but at the same time, saying "well if we didn't sell them scrapheap ships or buy the minerals their children mine, they'd starve" is a complete abdication of responsibility for the role the demand for those minerals plays in their situation. They mine them because they can sell them, that's the whole point. If you remove the entities buying them, then there's no reason to mine them.
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. Until you can do that, offering 'stop buying' as a solution is a waste of time.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    I don't think people even realize where Cobalt is used. But they'd notice in a hurry if the supply was somehow interrupted.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    > It's just unrealistic. Here's a challenge - cut cobalt out of your life. I'll bet you can't. "Realistic" is determined entirely by the values of the overarching system. The fate of the people at the long tail of the supply lines isn't valued. That's the single, solitary reason that this shit is still happening. Change that, and the system will adapt. The mines will get better, or they will be replaced with other mines that do it properly. Stop settling for what your corporate overlords tell you is doable. We can do anything as a species if we choose to, good or bad. Our history shows it. Industry has every reason to tell you it's impossible because they don't want to spend the money to insure supply lines are ethically handled. If we can mine coal in the United States without children and with relative safety, they can mine Cobalt in the same damn way. Cobalt doesn't by virtue of being cobalt need to be pried from the Earth by children.
    - solidasparagus 7y ago
      How would you suggest we start? Real, concrete steps please.
      - FussyZeus 7y ago
        You add regulation to businesses based in the US and that sell in the US specifying, explicitly, that they cannot use resources mined via exploitative practices. And then when businesses do anyway, because they will, you confiscate profits tied to products that were made that way. Repeat until they get the damn point.
    - celticmusic 7y ago
      > If we can mine coal in the United States without children and with relative safety, they can mine Cobalt in the same damn way. Cobalt doesn't by virtue of being cobalt need to be pried from the Earth by children. oh you didn't know? The blood of the children is what christens the cobalt such that it works in computers... /sarcasm
yters 7y ago
The 'someone will do it anyway' defense is not morally legitimate. Just because everyone else is doing it, does not make the action ok. Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come."
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  I'm not interested in sounding morally superior, I'm interested in actually helping people who need help. And if you want to do that, you need to accept that 'stop buying cobalt' is not currently a solution that has any chance of improving the state of things.
  - yters 7y ago
    How does 'continue buying unethically sourced cobalt' improve the state of things? Ideally, it is a dual solution of don't buy the unethical kind, and set up an alternate ethical supply chain to the same region so workers can switch to a better work place. But, if the latter is not possible, one can at least help decrease the market for unethical cobalt by ceasing purchase. Plus, it is not a matter of seeming morally superior. If one option is morally better than another, it should be chosen, regardless of the consequences. So, for instance, if Jesus is correct, that it is immoral to be a path of scandal, then one should choose to not be a path of scandal, even if the state of the world otherwise remains unchanged (e.g. unethical cobalt mining continues).
    - bluGill 7y ago
      In what situation? In the case of Cobalt it probably doesn't. In the case of rubber the big companies do provide better jobs for the families they employ than anything else, ensure the family gets modern medical care (as opposed to "witch doctor" care anyone not working for them gets), and the children do go to school and so have the ability to get a better job latter. The companies looks the other way in harvest season then families are taking their kids with them to work, so long as the kids are in school. Child labor for sure, but you can honestly argue that the children are better off despite that. You can decide if you accept that as better or not, but it is a reasonable argument that child labor isn't always the worst possible. Sadly I don't think in the case of cobalt the above applies.
ticmasta 7y ago
I appreciate your measured and informative responses that are not pure opinion but everyone else in the thread is adding nothing but gut-impulse emotional opinions. Cut your losses.

celticmusic 7y ago

seriously. How the fuck are people's moral compass so off? I understand reality is reality, but there are some things that should not be, and for slightly cheaper electronics of all things? fuck that.

bryan_w 7y ago
I mean, you typed that message using something that probably has cobalt inside of it or used cobalt in it's manufacturing. So... why is your moral compass so off?
- jessaustin 7y ago
  We're told that governments help us solve collective action problems. If it's hard for a single electronics manufacturer to wean itself from conflict cobalt, the government could help them by forcing all electronics manufacturers to cease purchase of conflict cobalt. Of course, that isn't the real purpose of governments or any other illegitimate authorities, so I won't hold my breath.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/4KZe4UO.png https://i.imgur.com/4KZe4UO.png
- celticmusic 7y ago
  oh please, I reject that argument outright. This is about stopping the exploitation of children. While you're trying to squabble over whether or not some random internet person is using a keyboard with cobalt in it, children are being forced down into these mines and risking their lives. Get your priorities straight.