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> Recently journalist Max Blumenthal was jailed on false charges. And released when the accusers were found the be lying. How does this incident put the US in

> Recently journalist Max Blumenthal was jailed on false charges. And released when the accusers were found the be lying. How does this incident put the US in the same league as Turkey?

DrScientist 7y ago
Let's list some stuff that doesn't look good. Guantanamo - detention and physiological torture without trial. Hounding of whistler blowers of illegal activity - Snowdon, Manning, Assange etc. Destabilizing countries around the world - many with democratically elected governments. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...) Now, of course, this is largely directed at other countries citizens rather than US citizens - so that makes it ok..... In terms of internal US politics - how do you explain George W Bush as president if the US is a meritocracy and not a oligarchy? Let's be clear - I'd prefer to live in the US over turkey, but it's not all rosy.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  The vast majority (at least 99.9%) of the documents that Snowden, Manning, and Assange leaked contained no illegal activity. No judge would classify them as whistlebowers.
  - jessaustin 7y ago
    OK you've outed yourself here. It is ridiculous to claim that Snowden and Manning are not whistleblowers. You're probably down with redefining "whistleblower" to only include made-up imaginary people like the supposed "CIA agent" who was so secretly stationed in the White House that she overheard multiple private two-person conversations.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      > It is ridiculous to claim that Snowden and Manning are not whistleblowers. I just explained why they aren't. Are you going to explain why you think they are or just include me in your wild conspiracy theories?
      - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
        Why no judge could class them that way (and its reasonable to doubt that). Still, as a nation we object to what they uncovered, and many are glad to learn of the massive overreach of authority these organizations are daily perpetrating.
        lern_too_spel 7y ago
        Whatever your thoughts on what the leakers uncovered in the less than 0.1% of documents that weren't simply legal things that the organizations were tasked to do, my point is that they would never be classified as whistlebowers. This feeds into the larger point that you cannot compare the US to Turkey for its treatment of indiscriminate leakers of state secrets vs. Turkey's much worse treatment of people who simply disagree with a dictator and expect anybody to take you seriously. Unrelated to the topic of discussion, what massive overreach do you think these organizations are daily perpetrating?
        DrScientist 7y ago
        Hmm, so he published originally to Greenwald about 9-10 k docs - so you are saying about 9-10 docs contained illegal stuff? Or are you counting all the documents he downloaded and looked at but didn't publish??? Maybe you are including every book he ever read as well? Remember the leak as a whole was essentially that the US ( and it's allies ) were hoovering everything up it could - phone and data, via any means necessary - often illegal means, just in case it was useful, with no respect for either national or international law. Whether you think it was necessary or not, common knowledge or not - it was illegal at the time and people like the director of national intelligence lied directly to congress about it happening. Yep it's not as bad a Turkey or North Korea - but that doesn't make it ok...
jessaustin 7y ago
The accusers being paid employees of CIA seeking to overturn the results of democratic elections in another sovereign nation puts the episode a bit closer to that league. https://thegrayzone.com/2019/10/24/usaid-funds-salaries-of-venezuelan-coup-leaders-to-lobby-us-politicians-for-regime-change/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/10/24/usaid-funds-salaries-of-v...

> Recently journalist Max Blumenthal was jailed on false charges. And released when the accusers were found the be lying. How does this incident put the US in the same league as Turkey?

DrScientist 7y ago

Let's list some stuff that doesn't look good. Guantanamo - detention and physiological torture without trial. Hounding of whistler blowers of illegal activity - Snowdon, Manning, Assange etc. Destabilizing countries around the world - many with democratically elected governments. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...) Now, of course, this is largely directed at other countries citizens rather than US citizens - so that makes it ok..... In terms of internal US politics - how do you explain George W Bush as president if the US is a meritocracy and not a oligarchy? Let's be clear - I'd prefer to live in the US over turkey, but it's not all rosy.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
The vast majority (at least 99.9%) of the documents that Snowden, Manning, and Assange leaked contained no illegal activity. No judge would classify them as whistlebowers.
- jessaustin 7y ago
  OK you've outed yourself here. It is ridiculous to claim that Snowden and Manning are not whistleblowers. You're probably down with redefining "whistleblower" to only include made-up imaginary people like the supposed "CIA agent" who was so secretly stationed in the White House that she overheard multiple private two-person conversations.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    > It is ridiculous to claim that Snowden and Manning are not whistleblowers. I just explained why they aren't. Are you going to explain why you think they are or just include me in your wild conspiracy theories?
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      Why no judge could class them that way (and its reasonable to doubt that). Still, as a nation we object to what they uncovered, and many are glad to learn of the massive overreach of authority these organizations are daily perpetrating.
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        Whatever your thoughts on what the leakers uncovered in the less than 0.1% of documents that weren't simply legal things that the organizations were tasked to do, my point is that they would never be classified as whistlebowers. This feeds into the larger point that you cannot compare the US to Turkey for its treatment of indiscriminate leakers of state secrets vs. Turkey's much worse treatment of people who simply disagree with a dictator and expect anybody to take you seriously. Unrelated to the topic of discussion, what massive overreach do you think these organizations are daily perpetrating?
        DrScientist 7y ago
        Hmm, so he published originally to Greenwald about 9-10 k docs - so you are saying about 9-10 docs contained illegal stuff? Or are you counting all the documents he downloaded and looked at but didn't publish??? Maybe you are including every book he ever read as well? Remember the leak as a whole was essentially that the US ( and it's allies ) were hoovering everything up it could - phone and data, via any means necessary - often illegal means, just in case it was useful, with no respect for either national or international law. Whether you think it was necessary or not, common knowledge or not - it was illegal at the time and people like the director of national intelligence lied directly to congress about it happening. Yep it's not as bad a Turkey or North Korea - but that doesn't make it ok...

jessaustin 7y ago

The accusers being paid employees of CIA seeking to overturn the results of democratic elections in another sovereign nation puts the episode a bit closer to that league. https://thegrayzone.com/2019/10/24/usaid-funds-salaries-of-venezuelan-coup-leaders-to-lobby-us-politicians-for-regime-change/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/10/24/usaid-funds-salaries-of-v...