4 ms·

> The opposing side has just the same experience with the arguments and papers from your side - there are many articles and papers questioning and criticizing p

by svara 7y ago

> The opposing side has just the same experience with the arguments and papers from your side - there are many articles and papers questioning and criticizing papers from the doomsday side. You are just cherry picking and practicing confirmation bias I was doing the literal opposite of cherry-picking, I was digging into the arguments as they were presented to me. So far nothing has held up. If you can give me an argument with a proper source I'll happily look into that as well. > In fact the "95% of scientists agree" is just such an example - if you look into it, the number becomes very questionable. A very poor example on many levels. 1) This statement is fundamentally irrelevant to the (scientific) discussion, because it does not contain a scientific argument. It could be 0%, it could be a 100%, that wouldn't change the validity of any of the scientific arguments presented. Truth isn't measured in mass appeal. 2) Yet, for someone who isn't well informed about a field, putting some trust in the subject matter experts is an OK strategy, and the point that a consensus broadly exists in climate science is correct, and there is support for the precise number of 97%. [0] > And your answer, as well as the comment you were replying to: it might as well all just be gibberish, for someone who isn't a climate scientist. High energy particle physics is mostly gibberish to me, yet I don't go around lecturing people on how it's all wrong. But your point is also wrong: I am not a climate scientist, and the whole discussion can be followed with a bit of high school physics, chemistry and biology, plus Wikipedia to fill in the gaps. Your next point shows that you were unwilling to put in that effort, but it isn't actually that hard ... > And in the end your refutation boils down to "we know that CO2 traps heat and warms the earth" It absolutely does not, I was addressing a very specific point about how historic CO2 levels are measured. > Why do you even believe the "CO2 traps heat" thing? Because you too can do things like look up the absorption spectrum for CO2 [1] or even do an experiment like [2] yourself. [0] https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/ https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/ [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect#/media/File:CO2_H2O_absorption_atmospheric_gases_unique_pattern_energy_wavelengths_of_energy_transparent_to_others.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect#/media/File:... [2] https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.1987255 https://aapt.scitation.org/doi/10.1119/1.1987255

adventskalender 7y ago
"I was doing the literal opposite of cherry-picking, I was digging into the arguments as they were presented to me. So far nothing has held up. If you can give me an argument with a proper source I'll happily look into that as well." Again, that is exactly how your opponents feel. " there is support for the precise number of 97%. [0]" You are merely appealing to authority. I already told you why I think the number is questionable, yet you keep at it. All your reference tells me is that the NASA is not an honest player in the debate and can't be trusted. Since I already looked into the papers that produced the consensus numbers, yet NASA chooses to use the numbers anyway. Since I have to assume NASA has the capacity to understand those papers, I have to assume they choose to selectively quote them out of political motivation. So they don't count as honest scientists anymore. (Honest Scientist = people who are dedicated to finding the truth, not just in validating their beliefs). And it very much contains a scientific argument, by proxy - since we can only trust the scientists, not verify their claims, if you claim the scientists support your arguments, you are making the claim that your arguments are backed by science. It is very relevant. It may also be one of the most cited claims in the whole debate. "High energy particle physics is mostly gibberish to me, yet I don't go around lecturing people on how it's all wrong." But you also don't go around and educate people on particle physics. There are no stakes for most of us (unless you count the cost in tax payer money for building particle accelerators). Not the same with CO2. "> And in the end your refutation boils down to "we know that CO2 traps heat and warms the earth" It absolutely does not, I was addressing a very specific point about how historic CO2 levels are measured." Yes you did, all you said is "we know how CO2 works", "we know" was your entire argument: "Importantly, of course, none of this is really that relevant to the discussion of anthropogenic global warming, since we know that we are putting CO2 into the atmosphere, and that CO2 in the atmosphere traps heat." "the whole discussion can be followed with a bit of high school physics, chemistry and biology, plus Wikipedia to fill in the gaps. Your next point shows that you were unwilling to put in that effort, but it isn't actually that hard" Oh so you claim the authority of a climate scientist now, because it is oh such a simple subject? You took some high school physics, Wikipedia, and now you are an expert on climate? I don't think anybody doubts that CO2 can trap heat in principle. But going from that to a doomsday scenario is a little bit more complex.
- 7y ago

by svara 7y ago

adventskalender 7y ago

"I was doing the literal opposite of cherry-picking, I was digging into the arguments as they were presented to me. So far nothing has held up. If you can give me an argument with a proper source I'll happily look into that as well." Again, that is exactly how your opponents feel. " there is support for the precise number of 97%. [0]" You are merely appealing to authority. I already told you why I think the number is questionable, yet you keep at it. All your reference tells me is that the NASA is not an honest player in the debate and can't be trusted. Since I already looked into the papers that produced the consensus numbers, yet NASA chooses to use the numbers anyway. Since I have to assume NASA has the capacity to understand those papers, I have to assume they choose to selectively quote them out of political motivation. So they don't count as honest scientists anymore. (Honest Scientist = people who are dedicated to finding the truth, not just in validating their beliefs). And it very much contains a scientific argument, by proxy - since we can only trust the scientists, not verify their claims, if you claim the scientists support your arguments, you are making the claim that your arguments are backed by science. It is very relevant. It may also be one of the most cited claims in the whole debate. "High energy particle physics is mostly gibberish to me, yet I don't go around lecturing people on how it's all wrong." But you also don't go around and educate people on particle physics. There are no stakes for most of us (unless you count the cost in tax payer money for building particle accelerators). Not the same with CO2. "> And in the end your refutation boils down to "we know that CO2 traps heat and warms the earth" It absolutely does not, I was addressing a very specific point about how historic CO2 levels are measured." Yes you did, all you said is "we know how CO2 works", "we know" was your entire argument: "Importantly, of course, none of this is really that relevant to the discussion of anthropogenic global warming, since we know that we are putting CO2 into the atmosphere, and that CO2 in the atmosphere traps heat." "the whole discussion can be followed with a bit of high school physics, chemistry and biology, plus Wikipedia to fill in the gaps. Your next point shows that you were unwilling to put in that effort, but it isn't actually that hard" Oh so you claim the authority of a climate scientist now, because it is oh such a simple subject? You took some high school physics, Wikipedia, and now you are an expert on climate? I don't think anybody doubts that CO2 can trap heat in principle. But going from that to a doomsday scenario is a little bit more complex.

7y ago