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I'm a londoner and we have here a system of public transport which is controlled by cards ('oyster' cards, RFID credit card sized things - https://en.wikipedia.

I'm a londoner and we have here a system of public transport which is controlled by cards ('oyster' cards, RFID credit card sized things - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyster_card). Not exactly to address your point but they're a good way of tracking individuals so I always try to pay anonymously (cash) and never register it. I should probably buy a new one every few months but usually forget. FYI anyway. Privacy aside it's a pretty decent system.

CoolGuySteve 7y ago
They can recognize your face as you tap at the turnstile. Maybe they don’t do it now, but if they currently don’t they will in the name of anti-terrorism.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  They don't have realtime face recognition on buses and trains. > Maybe they don’t do it now, but if they currently don’t they will in the name of anti-terrorism. Do people like you, total fatalists who simply roll over when challenged, shouting "we're all fucked so get used to it", do you actually get off on it? Do you enjoy telling people like me who try to maintain privacy not just for myself but so as to improve the privacy of others, that any effort they put in is wasted? Do you like frustrating people like me who have actually tried, in putting pressure on councils to comply with GDPR and data protection for example (slow and ongoing currently), tried to make the world a better place for others? Are you trolling; do you like destroying other people's efforts to improve things; or are you clueless as to the corrosive effects posts like this are having? Do you see any cost in hopelessness? Have you ever done anything significant to protect your own privacy, never mind others? Do you like to see yourself as not as a free agent but a ragdoll that the state is free to play with? Or do you wish to feel that making an effort in society is plain worthless, which allows you a clear conscience in not doing anything? Just curious.
  - johnr2 7y ago
    > Do people like you.... Your post comes across as an ad-hominem attack. I read the post you're replying to as a warning, nothing more.
    - tempguy9999 7y ago
      Thank you for the perspective. I suppose it was ad hom. I can't take his post in any way constructively (if it was a warning what am I supposed to do about it? Does he think I'm so stupid I can't see the risk already?) and while I don't doubt it was an honest comment, despite my suggestion of trolling which I regret making, I seriously doubt the poster considered the damaging effect it has on general discourse - or doing something about it himself. It was was ad hom because I see his reply as outright destructive. If the poster replied, I'd be happy to talk and to delete my post and perhaps we both could gain. And I'd feel a lot happier! I'd feel like something changed. But instead, downvotes instead of answers. I've had enough of HN. So many smart people, but then the rest... Please feel free to flag that post of mine. DanG, please ban me.
      - bookofjoe 7y ago
        Your comment brings to mind my experience on reddit: no matter how innocuous something I wrote seemed to me, someone attacked me for it. I finally bailed.
        tempguy9999 7y ago
        I'm sorry to hear it :( That may be what's happened here, an innocuous comment mis-taken by myself. But before I go finally, tell me please in your view what was a reasonable interpretation of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21823201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21823201 I pretty well described how it came across to me, effectively that we're all in a surveillance society and if we aren't we soon will be like it or not. I can salvage nothing worthwhile from that poisonous nihilism.
        7y ago
- brokenmachine 7y ago
  Remember, pedophiles get the train too. Won't you think of the children?
systemtest 7y ago
For a typical workday there are so many datapoints: Checking into the secured bicycle parking, walking through the turnstiles at the exit. Walking into the train station. Walking out of the train station. Walking into the metro station. Walking out of the metro station. Entering the bus. Exiting the bus. And the opposite way when I go home. I asked them to delete the entering/exiting data on the secure bicycle parking as it's a free service but they declined as their system couldn't handle manual data removal.
bb123 7y ago
TfL has openly said they track mobile device movements in their network.
- CaptainMarvel 7y ago
  I suspect this is literally the only reason there is WiFi available now.
consp 7y ago
The same system exists for the Dutch public transport (exactly the same cards). Privacy wise you are able to buy an anonymous card with cash. But ... the operators are phasing out machines which are able to accept cash faster than you can find them and they are idiotically expensive if you want to replace them every few weeks as they are tracking you anyways even on the anonymous cards.
- magduf 7y ago
  Interestingly, in Japan for my short stay there, I found that the Suica card I needed for public transport could only be purchased and recharged with cash.
CaptainMarvel 7y ago
It’s tough to use TFL anonymously. You only need to pay once by card for them to link it to you. You cannot get refunds (e.g. train delay) without registering the card.

CoolGuySteve 7y ago

They can recognize your face as you tap at the turnstile. Maybe they don’t do it now, but if they currently don’t they will in the name of anti-terrorism.

tempguy9999 7y ago
They don't have realtime face recognition on buses and trains. > Maybe they don’t do it now, but if they currently don’t they will in the name of anti-terrorism. Do people like you, total fatalists who simply roll over when challenged, shouting "we're all fucked so get used to it", do you actually get off on it? Do you enjoy telling people like me who try to maintain privacy not just for myself but so as to improve the privacy of others, that any effort they put in is wasted? Do you like frustrating people like me who have actually tried, in putting pressure on councils to comply with GDPR and data protection for example (slow and ongoing currently), tried to make the world a better place for others? Are you trolling; do you like destroying other people's efforts to improve things; or are you clueless as to the corrosive effects posts like this are having? Do you see any cost in hopelessness? Have you ever done anything significant to protect your own privacy, never mind others? Do you like to see yourself as not as a free agent but a ragdoll that the state is free to play with? Or do you wish to feel that making an effort in society is plain worthless, which allows you a clear conscience in not doing anything? Just curious.
- johnr2 7y ago
  > Do people like you.... Your post comes across as an ad-hominem attack. I read the post you're replying to as a warning, nothing more.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    Thank you for the perspective. I suppose it was ad hom. I can't take his post in any way constructively (if it was a warning what am I supposed to do about it? Does he think I'm so stupid I can't see the risk already?) and while I don't doubt it was an honest comment, despite my suggestion of trolling which I regret making, I seriously doubt the poster considered the damaging effect it has on general discourse - or doing something about it himself. It was was ad hom because I see his reply as outright destructive. If the poster replied, I'd be happy to talk and to delete my post and perhaps we both could gain. And I'd feel a lot happier! I'd feel like something changed. But instead, downvotes instead of answers. I've had enough of HN. So many smart people, but then the rest... Please feel free to flag that post of mine. DanG, please ban me.
    - bookofjoe 7y ago
      Your comment brings to mind my experience on reddit: no matter how innocuous something I wrote seemed to me, someone attacked me for it. I finally bailed.
      - tempguy9999 7y ago
        I'm sorry to hear it :( That may be what's happened here, an innocuous comment mis-taken by myself. But before I go finally, tell me please in your view what was a reasonable interpretation of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21823201 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21823201 I pretty well described how it came across to me, effectively that we're all in a surveillance society and if we aren't we soon will be like it or not. I can salvage nothing worthwhile from that poisonous nihilism.
        7y ago
brokenmachine 7y ago
Remember, pedophiles get the train too. Won't you think of the children?

systemtest 7y ago

For a typical workday there are so many datapoints: Checking into the secured bicycle parking, walking through the turnstiles at the exit. Walking into the train station. Walking out of the train station. Walking into the metro station. Walking out of the metro station. Entering the bus. Exiting the bus. And the opposite way when I go home. I asked them to delete the entering/exiting data on the secure bicycle parking as it's a free service but they declined as their system couldn't handle manual data removal.

bb123 7y ago

TfL has openly said they track mobile device movements in their network.

CaptainMarvel 7y ago
I suspect this is literally the only reason there is WiFi available now.

consp 7y ago

The same system exists for the Dutch public transport (exactly the same cards). Privacy wise you are able to buy an anonymous card with cash. But ... the operators are phasing out machines which are able to accept cash faster than you can find them and they are idiotically expensive if you want to replace them every few weeks as they are tracking you anyways even on the anonymous cards.

magduf 7y ago
Interestingly, in Japan for my short stay there, I found that the Suica card I needed for public transport could only be purchased and recharged with cash.

CaptainMarvel 7y ago

It’s tough to use TFL anonymously. You only need to pay once by card for them to link it to you. You cannot get refunds (e.g. train delay) without registering the card.