4 ms·

I was basically born into CS; there was no question even from Kindergarten that I would ever go into another field. Got my first real full time job at 25, and i

I was basically born into CS; there was no question even from Kindergarten that I would ever go into another field. Got my first real full time job at 25, and it was mediocre, it was definitely not a FAANG paradise, and I remember we worried a lot about getting off-shored in those days. I'm really glad the thing I was naturally interested in turned out to pay so well. Though I do wonder what do I (as an SF dev) offer that an offshore contractor making 1/5th as much doesn't? Or heck never mind offshore, somebody outside one of the big tech centers (like where I first worked after graduating). The future of engineering always seems to be remote, but here we still are. But you're right, the .com crash totally washed out a lot of the "HTML Programmers" and their ilk, people who couldn't pass FizzBuzz but got hired because they knew buzzwords and the hiring teams didn't know any better and were desperate. I like to think today's FAANG interviews are good enough to at least not repeat those mistakes. Besides, I'll probably always worry I'm not worth my salary on some level (impostor syndrome, yay) - it's hard to come to an objective conclusion on this, anyway.

leetrout 7y ago
I look at my skills compared to the earning potential of some other trades. This is certainly not 100% accurate because it’s based on what I pay in more rural America but I like it: Barber - 3 cuts per hour @ $20 ea = $60 / hour Mechanic - $60-80 per hour Lawn Care - $40 / yard up to 3-4 yards per hour = $40-$120 per hour Steam cleaning = $150 for a couch = $150 per hour (carpets are less) Plumbers in East Tennessee = $60 - $80 per hour Roofers = $40-60 per hour So when I freelance I charge $75-$125 per hour without a second thought. If my employer pays every developer on a 10 person team $120k that’s still paying less than most mechanics would charge at $60/hour and a much better return than $25/hr off shore with all the communication lag and issues and quality issues. I never worry about competing with offshore. There’s a time and a place for cheap “just get it done” help and it usually costs more in the long run in delays and rework.
- leetcrew 7y ago
  I think your conclusion is correct, but some of your examples are not (typically) freelancers. the auto shop might bill you $60-80 an hour for the mechanic's time, but they're paying the person a lot less. same for the barber. I don't worry too much about competition offshore. the timezone issue alone poses a significant barrier to highly collaborative work. I don't think the concern about domestic competition can be so easily dismissed though. starting salary for someone with a BS in computer science is considerably higher than pretty much any other undergrad degree. when you think about it, the barrier to entry is really not that high. I don't doubt that specialists and experienced engineers will continue to command high salaries, but I do wonder how long people will keep getting $80k+ straight out of college to develop CRUD apps. over time, I feel like salaries for non-interdisciplinary CS majors will have to converge to that of the other STEM majors.
- MaximumYComb 7y ago
  As a general rule, the jobs you listed aren't making $120k+. The ones that make that money are working long hours with poor conditions. Developers making $120k are very privileged compared to labour roles
  - leetrout 7y ago
    Indeed. The overhead of a developer is a $1000 for a laptop and an internet connection. All the other jobs I listed have a lot of overhead. I think barbers pay 200-400 / mo for their chair or a lot more if they are covering rent. Landscapers have equipment, maintenance and fuel. Steam cleaners have equipment and fuel.
- sybarita 7y ago
  You have a really distorted view of how much people doing these jobs actually take home
  - DaniloDias 7y ago
    Your cheap shot that doesn’t point to data fosters similar opinions about you.
  - leetrout 7y ago
    That’s fair. I shouldn’t have compared earning potential and said something along the lines of what people pay for services in the marketplace. I was thinking in my head about comparing the cost of a developer to the cost of other things in the physical world. As noted in another comment reply these other jobs have a lot of overhead as well.
  - cookiecaper 7y ago
    It's not about take-home for the individual, it's about the fact that the per-hour price point at the point of sale, even for highly-competitive services, bottoms out in the $80-100/hr range. You just can't really sustain a legitimate business on less. Lots of freelancers set their price with their salary in mind instead of considering the several moving parts involved in running a business. It's useful to consider that all the local small businesses around you, the type of places that have already been competed down to the price floor, still need to be making around $100/hr to stay afloat.
- collyw 7y ago
  A lot of those per hour jobs will involve travelling around. In Europe my wage is lower than what you claim a barber can earn, but I do have a reliable 40 hours per week every week, paid holiday and a pension / healthcare system being taken care of.
- thatcat 7y ago
  Most of those workers don't own the means of production so make half or less of the charged rate with the other half going to the business owners.

leetrout 7y ago

I look at my skills compared to the earning potential of some other trades. This is certainly not 100% accurate because it’s based on what I pay in more rural America but I like it: Barber - 3 cuts per hour @ $20 ea = $60 / hour Mechanic - $60-80 per hour Lawn Care - $40 / yard up to 3-4 yards per hour = $40-$120 per hour Steam cleaning = $150 for a couch = $150 per hour (carpets are less) Plumbers in East Tennessee = $60 - $80 per hour Roofers = $40-60 per hour So when I freelance I charge $75-$125 per hour without a second thought. If my employer pays every developer on a 10 person team $120k that’s still paying less than most mechanics would charge at $60/hour and a much better return than $25/hr off shore with all the communication lag and issues and quality issues. I never worry about competing with offshore. There’s a time and a place for cheap “just get it done” help and it usually costs more in the long run in delays and rework.

leetcrew 7y ago
I think your conclusion is correct, but some of your examples are not (typically) freelancers. the auto shop might bill you $60-80 an hour for the mechanic's time, but they're paying the person a lot less. same for the barber. I don't worry too much about competition offshore. the timezone issue alone poses a significant barrier to highly collaborative work. I don't think the concern about domestic competition can be so easily dismissed though. starting salary for someone with a BS in computer science is considerably higher than pretty much any other undergrad degree. when you think about it, the barrier to entry is really not that high. I don't doubt that specialists and experienced engineers will continue to command high salaries, but I do wonder how long people will keep getting $80k+ straight out of college to develop CRUD apps. over time, I feel like salaries for non-interdisciplinary CS majors will have to converge to that of the other STEM majors.
MaximumYComb 7y ago
As a general rule, the jobs you listed aren't making $120k+. The ones that make that money are working long hours with poor conditions. Developers making $120k are very privileged compared to labour roles
- leetrout 7y ago
  Indeed. The overhead of a developer is a $1000 for a laptop and an internet connection. All the other jobs I listed have a lot of overhead. I think barbers pay 200-400 / mo for their chair or a lot more if they are covering rent. Landscapers have equipment, maintenance and fuel. Steam cleaners have equipment and fuel.
sybarita 7y ago
You have a really distorted view of how much people doing these jobs actually take home
- DaniloDias 7y ago
  Your cheap shot that doesn’t point to data fosters similar opinions about you.
- leetrout 7y ago
  That’s fair. I shouldn’t have compared earning potential and said something along the lines of what people pay for services in the marketplace. I was thinking in my head about comparing the cost of a developer to the cost of other things in the physical world. As noted in another comment reply these other jobs have a lot of overhead as well.
- cookiecaper 7y ago
  It's not about take-home for the individual, it's about the fact that the per-hour price point at the point of sale, even for highly-competitive services, bottoms out in the $80-100/hr range. You just can't really sustain a legitimate business on less. Lots of freelancers set their price with their salary in mind instead of considering the several moving parts involved in running a business. It's useful to consider that all the local small businesses around you, the type of places that have already been competed down to the price floor, still need to be making around $100/hr to stay afloat.
collyw 7y ago
A lot of those per hour jobs will involve travelling around. In Europe my wage is lower than what you claim a barber can earn, but I do have a reliable 40 hours per week every week, paid holiday and a pension / healthcare system being taken care of.
thatcat 7y ago
Most of those workers don't own the means of production so make half or less of the charged rate with the other half going to the business owners.