5 ms·

I think you have no idea how privileged you are for having the opportunity to enter the market with your background and a computer science degree in three years

by Dowwie 7y ago

I think you have no idea how privileged you are for having the opportunity to enter the market with your background and a computer science degree in three years. I interned during summers during university starting around 2000. The dot com bubble had burst before I even graduated. The party was over. Managerialism was in full force. IT Managers at what was then a Fortune-10 financial powerhouse were going on an on about how all of IT consisted of commoditised workers and the only way forward was as a manager of offshore consultants. I felt like my degree was worthless. The last ~20 years have proven those managers very, very wrong. In fact, many of those managers didn't go much further with their careers, as they were very reliant on politics, but the talented programmers and admins continued to grow in depth and breadth of in-demand expertise. Pursue computer science but challenge yourself with it. Don't waste these years just getting by. Double major in something that will help you work with artificial intelligence, if you want to do something practical, but double majoring in something such as philosophy could help you develop skills that you'll use for the rest of your life. Summer internships can help you gain perspective about what you may want to do after graduation. A lot of people change employers, and some even change careers, within the first four years after university so anticipate change.

jmccorm 7y ago
It's always nice to find a reply on HN that captures so much of what you wanted to say. I came to that same perspective from a non-financial Fortune 50. After Y2K was when a very good chunk of those who got CS degrees for all the wrong reasons (didn't have the raw talent or personal interest) got weeded out. I've seen the same thing happen in other industries with a bust/boom, such as petroleum. Anyhow, OP doesn't sound like someone who's into CS for all the wrong reasons. I personally wouldn't get focused on FAANG as the next step, but if they're already going to an elite university, resume building with FAANG seems reasonable enough. Above all, having a real interest in what you're doing is one of the greatest multipliers to your efforts... and your enjoyment.
- JimboOmega 7y ago
  I was basically born into CS; there was no question even from Kindergarten that I would ever go into another field. Got my first real full time job at 25, and it was mediocre, it was definitely not a FAANG paradise, and I remember we worried a lot about getting off-shored in those days. I'm really glad the thing I was naturally interested in turned out to pay so well. Though I do wonder what do I (as an SF dev) offer that an offshore contractor making 1/5th as much doesn't? Or heck never mind offshore, somebody outside one of the big tech centers (like where I first worked after graduating). The future of engineering always seems to be remote, but here we still are. But you're right, the .com crash totally washed out a lot of the "HTML Programmers" and their ilk, people who couldn't pass FizzBuzz but got hired because they knew buzzwords and the hiring teams didn't know any better and were desperate. I like to think today's FAANG interviews are good enough to at least not repeat those mistakes. Besides, I'll probably always worry I'm not worth my salary on some level (impostor syndrome, yay) - it's hard to come to an objective conclusion on this, anyway.
  - leetrout 7y ago
    I look at my skills compared to the earning potential of some other trades. This is certainly not 100% accurate because it’s based on what I pay in more rural America but I like it: Barber - 3 cuts per hour @ $20 ea = $60 / hour Mechanic - $60-80 per hour Lawn Care - $40 / yard up to 3-4 yards per hour = $40-$120 per hour Steam cleaning = $150 for a couch = $150 per hour (carpets are less) Plumbers in East Tennessee = $60 - $80 per hour Roofers = $40-60 per hour So when I freelance I charge $75-$125 per hour without a second thought. If my employer pays every developer on a 10 person team $120k that’s still paying less than most mechanics would charge at $60/hour and a much better return than $25/hr off shore with all the communication lag and issues and quality issues. I never worry about competing with offshore. There’s a time and a place for cheap “just get it done” help and it usually costs more in the long run in delays and rework.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      I think your conclusion is correct, but some of your examples are not (typically) freelancers. the auto shop might bill you $60-80 an hour for the mechanic's time, but they're paying the person a lot less. same for the barber. I don't worry too much about competition offshore. the timezone issue alone poses a significant barrier to highly collaborative work. I don't think the concern about domestic competition can be so easily dismissed though. starting salary for someone with a BS in computer science is considerably higher than pretty much any other undergrad degree. when you think about it, the barrier to entry is really not that high. I don't doubt that specialists and experienced engineers will continue to command high salaries, but I do wonder how long people will keep getting $80k+ straight out of college to develop CRUD apps. over time, I feel like salaries for non-interdisciplinary CS majors will have to converge to that of the other STEM majors.
heedlessly3 7y ago
I disagree with "double major". Instead graduate in 3 years, get a master's
- mywittyname 7y ago
  Having a background in a secondary science can be a huge benefit because clear understanding another domain is a lot harder to master than figuring out how to code up that understanding into a functional product. For example, where I work, aero/mech engineers-cum-developers command a huge premium. My partner has a medical background and no programming experience, but is a very productive programmer for her team because she understands deeply what needs to be done. Her stuff isn't scalable past N>3, but it does the job she needs and was developed for a fraction of the cost from a professional dev team.
  - gusmd 7y ago
    This lowly Mech. Eng. turned developer is very curious about where do you work that my background could command a huge premium. I used to leverage my Mech. knowledge in a previous job but was severely underpaid compared to my current FAANG job.
    - mywittyname 7y ago
      Working on engineering software for design and manufacturing. Though, by huge premium, I mean 20-30% over the median for the area. It's still nowhere near what you make at a FAANG.
octokatt 7y ago
+1 for double-majoring advice. Double-majoring can also help create more than one way of thinking and more neuro-plasticity.
tharne 7y ago
This is really good advice that I wish I had gotten while still in school.
dozcom 7y ago
A (second) major in mathematics is worth the effort for the simple reason that it is key to many science and engineering subjects. Math is the science of structures, patterns and abstractions. I would describe it as "abstract physics" or "abstract engineering" as it exhibits all the major abstractions utilized in engineering and the sciences. Plus, it basically never gets obsolete. Many theorems work once proven even after 1000s of years, and you can't state the same thing in regards to computer science. The things you learned in your operating systems class for example can get obsolete quick whereas a good solid math course such as in abstract algebra or linear algebra will give you something of a lifetime (and even beyond that). Let's take one particular example with linear algebra. With linear algebra you can understand Fourier transforms better (and why they work - roughly: your target function gets projected to a set of sine/cosine functions), with linear algebra you can grasp the backbone of neural network's aka the back-propagation algorithm, with linear algebra you can understand various transformations needed in computer graphics, with linear algebra you can better understand quantum computing/programming, ... Linear algebra is just one fundamental subject that every math freshman needs to grasp as many consecutive courses require a good grasp of linear algebra. Tl;tr: you cannot go wrong with studying mathematics. Yours truly, A CS undergrad

by Dowwie 7y ago

jmccorm 7y ago

It's always nice to find a reply on HN that captures so much of what you wanted to say. I came to that same perspective from a non-financial Fortune 50. After Y2K was when a very good chunk of those who got CS degrees for all the wrong reasons (didn't have the raw talent or personal interest) got weeded out. I've seen the same thing happen in other industries with a bust/boom, such as petroleum. Anyhow, OP doesn't sound like someone who's into CS for all the wrong reasons. I personally wouldn't get focused on FAANG as the next step, but if they're already going to an elite university, resume building with FAANG seems reasonable enough. Above all, having a real interest in what you're doing is one of the greatest multipliers to your efforts... and your enjoyment.

JimboOmega 7y ago
I was basically born into CS; there was no question even from Kindergarten that I would ever go into another field. Got my first real full time job at 25, and it was mediocre, it was definitely not a FAANG paradise, and I remember we worried a lot about getting off-shored in those days. I'm really glad the thing I was naturally interested in turned out to pay so well. Though I do wonder what do I (as an SF dev) offer that an offshore contractor making 1/5th as much doesn't? Or heck never mind offshore, somebody outside one of the big tech centers (like where I first worked after graduating). The future of engineering always seems to be remote, but here we still are. But you're right, the .com crash totally washed out a lot of the "HTML Programmers" and their ilk, people who couldn't pass FizzBuzz but got hired because they knew buzzwords and the hiring teams didn't know any better and were desperate. I like to think today's FAANG interviews are good enough to at least not repeat those mistakes. Besides, I'll probably always worry I'm not worth my salary on some level (impostor syndrome, yay) - it's hard to come to an objective conclusion on this, anyway.
- leetrout 7y ago
  I look at my skills compared to the earning potential of some other trades. This is certainly not 100% accurate because it’s based on what I pay in more rural America but I like it: Barber - 3 cuts per hour @ $20 ea = $60 / hour Mechanic - $60-80 per hour Lawn Care - $40 / yard up to 3-4 yards per hour = $40-$120 per hour Steam cleaning = $150 for a couch = $150 per hour (carpets are less) Plumbers in East Tennessee = $60 - $80 per hour Roofers = $40-60 per hour So when I freelance I charge $75-$125 per hour without a second thought. If my employer pays every developer on a 10 person team $120k that’s still paying less than most mechanics would charge at $60/hour and a much better return than $25/hr off shore with all the communication lag and issues and quality issues. I never worry about competing with offshore. There’s a time and a place for cheap “just get it done” help and it usually costs more in the long run in delays and rework.
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    I think your conclusion is correct, but some of your examples are not (typically) freelancers. the auto shop might bill you $60-80 an hour for the mechanic's time, but they're paying the person a lot less. same for the barber. I don't worry too much about competition offshore. the timezone issue alone poses a significant barrier to highly collaborative work. I don't think the concern about domestic competition can be so easily dismissed though. starting salary for someone with a BS in computer science is considerably higher than pretty much any other undergrad degree. when you think about it, the barrier to entry is really not that high. I don't doubt that specialists and experienced engineers will continue to command high salaries, but I do wonder how long people will keep getting $80k+ straight out of college to develop CRUD apps. over time, I feel like salaries for non-interdisciplinary CS majors will have to converge to that of the other STEM majors.

heedlessly3 7y ago

I disagree with "double major". Instead graduate in 3 years, get a master's

mywittyname 7y ago
Having a background in a secondary science can be a huge benefit because clear understanding another domain is a lot harder to master than figuring out how to code up that understanding into a functional product. For example, where I work, aero/mech engineers-cum-developers command a huge premium. My partner has a medical background and no programming experience, but is a very productive programmer for her team because she understands deeply what needs to be done. Her stuff isn't scalable past N>3, but it does the job she needs and was developed for a fraction of the cost from a professional dev team.
- gusmd 7y ago
  This lowly Mech. Eng. turned developer is very curious about where do you work that my background could command a huge premium. I used to leverage my Mech. knowledge in a previous job but was severely underpaid compared to my current FAANG job.
  - mywittyname 7y ago
    Working on engineering software for design and manufacturing. Though, by huge premium, I mean 20-30% over the median for the area. It's still nowhere near what you make at a FAANG.

octokatt 7y ago

+1 for double-majoring advice. Double-majoring can also help create more than one way of thinking and more neuro-plasticity.

tharne 7y ago

This is really good advice that I wish I had gotten while still in school.

dozcom 7y ago

A (second) major in mathematics is worth the effort for the simple reason that it is key to many science and engineering subjects. Math is the science of structures, patterns and abstractions. I would describe it as "abstract physics" or "abstract engineering" as it exhibits all the major abstractions utilized in engineering and the sciences. Plus, it basically never gets obsolete. Many theorems work once proven even after 1000s of years, and you can't state the same thing in regards to computer science. The things you learned in your operating systems class for example can get obsolete quick whereas a good solid math course such as in abstract algebra or linear algebra will give you something of a lifetime (and even beyond that). Let's take one particular example with linear algebra. With linear algebra you can understand Fourier transforms better (and why they work - roughly: your target function gets projected to a set of sine/cosine functions), with linear algebra you can grasp the backbone of neural network's aka the back-propagation algorithm, with linear algebra you can understand various transformations needed in computer graphics, with linear algebra you can better understand quantum computing/programming, ... Linear algebra is just one fundamental subject that every math freshman needs to grasp as many consecutive courses require a good grasp of linear algebra. Tl;tr: you cannot go wrong with studying mathematics. Yours truly, A CS undergrad