5 ms·

> Uh, ... wow. "Luckily?" That is what one would say if they were grateful for the deaths, isn't it? Isn't it just a bonus that it happens to The Other?

tomlockwood 7y ago
Considering my argument has been about attempting to reduce gun deaths you might want to reconsider that assumption. However, lucky for you, I'm pretty sure that assumption would make it easier for you to dismiss my argument. I say lucky for you, but what I really mean to say is it'd be bad if you did that. Its a little turn of phrase that isn't literal and which is probably lost via text. Lets reduce gun deaths. They are tragic and often unnecessary. Also, fear of The Other, seems to be what drives some of the people in this thread to defend gun ownership. One responder here justified gun ownership by saying other people were "animals" that given the chance would exact violence upon them.
- mlyle 7y ago
  I spend a lot of time at and around a cabin up in the Sierras; sometimes with no means to contact law enforcement; and other times with law enforcement about 45 minutes out. 99.9% of people you might meet are decent folks. But there's meth around, etc. I'm not a huge dude. I probably would have already been stabbed if not for carrying a firearm during some of the questionable encounters I've had up there. What do you propose for my use case?
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    If your use case is staying safe and alive, and you already own a gun, my recommendation is that you seek out psychological support every now and then. Obviously, this is difficult in a rural community, which is probably one of the factors that makes committing suicide by gun a much higher risk amongst men in rural communities than murder. Also, regardless of whether police are 45 minutes or 10 minutes away, that's not going to help you during a meth-fuelled knife attack. But, putting all that aside, a gun won't protect you if someone sneaks up on you. If you're in a cabin in the sierras, you probably aren't encountering thousands of people, so your risk of getting stabbed is considerably lower than someone in a city. If someone's far enough away from you a bolt-action is probably good enough to protect you. They're legal in Australia - you can own one if you pass the licensing requirements. Presumably you haven't shot anyone yet, so I'm pretty sure calibre isn't a concern. So the real scenario you're worried about, in your mountain cabin in the Sierras, is someone being close enough to stab you, or too drug-addled or foolhardy to care about being threatened or shot with a 22 and not sneaking up on you. My question to you is why you see that as more of a risk than suicide? Is addressing the use case of defence against violent crime worth the excess risk you are exposing yourself to? Not many people expect to be struck with depression, but it happens, particularly in rural communities - and there's a lot of evidence of that, too.
    - mlyle 7y ago
      I completely disagree with your analysis, but it's not really worth debating. > My question to you is why you see that as more of a risk than suicide? If I decide to kill myself, then I've died with consent. Might happen eventually-- maybe I'll have a bad health diagnosis or something-- I'm not concerned about the "risk".
      - tomlockwood 7y ago
        > I completely disagree with your analysis, but it's not really worth debating. Ok! I think you're considerably overestimating the likelihood of needing to defend yourself with the type of gun you think you need. A bolt action 22 is enough for pretty much anyone, and we really need to weigh up whether the increased risk of handguns and assault rifles is worth their availability. > If I decide to kill myself, then I've died with consent. If you consider people with mental illness as being able to consent rationally, sure. > Might happen eventually-- maybe I'll have a bad health diagnosis or something-- I'm not concerned about the "risk". Like I said earlier, rural men are at very high risk of mental illness and suicide, regardless of having a bad health diagnosis. Suicide significantly increases in times of drought, by the way. Owning a gun also significantly increases the risk of death by suicide. You'd be unequivocally less at risk of dying of gunshot wounds or suffering a gun-related injury if you didn't own a gun. Stay safe out there!
        mlyle 7y ago
        > Ok! I think you're considerably overestimating the likelihood of needing to defend yourself with the type of gun you think you need. OK. I think you heavily overestimate your own level of knowledge and understanding on this topic. > A bolt action 22 is enough for pretty much anyone, This is a terrible defensive choice. It is unlikely to be available if needed, and doesn't work well at short-moderate range. Longer ranges are too far for credible self defense. Also, the lethality is limited; you're going to need to get lucky to stop someone from stabbing the fuck out of you. There are a whole lot of sketchy people who come out because the area is isolated and police response is slow. I'm not rural BTW; I just spend a couple months a year up there recreationally. > assault rifles is worth their availability. Civilian semi-auto rifles use in crime (which aren't "assault rifles" btw)-- and in suicide-- is negligible. It's rounding error on the statistics. > Owning a gun also significantly increases the risk of death by suicide. Correlation equals causation, amirite? Risk of non-gun suicide increases with firearm ownership, but it's still clearly causative. ;)
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  > Lets reduce gun deaths. They are tragic and often unnecessary. And we can do that by addressing the motivations behind them through social programs. > Also, fear of The Other, Technically, what was demonstrated in that comment was closer to hatred than just fear. There's more than enough gun nuts out there who wish that gun owners would shoot themselves.
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    > And we can do that by addressing the motivations behind them through social programs. Lets do those, and gun control. > Technically, what was demonstrated in that comment was closer to hatred than just fear. I think guns are neat, and if I move back out to the country I'll probably own one. > There's more than enough gun nuts out there who wish that gun owners would shoot themselves. Not me, though.

tomlockwood 7y ago

Considering my argument has been about attempting to reduce gun deaths you might want to reconsider that assumption. However, lucky for you, I'm pretty sure that assumption would make it easier for you to dismiss my argument. I say lucky for you, but what I really mean to say is it'd be bad if you did that. Its a little turn of phrase that isn't literal and which is probably lost via text. Lets reduce gun deaths. They are tragic and often unnecessary. Also, fear of The Other, seems to be what drives some of the people in this thread to defend gun ownership. One responder here justified gun ownership by saying other people were "animals" that given the chance would exact violence upon them.

mlyle 7y ago
I spend a lot of time at and around a cabin up in the Sierras; sometimes with no means to contact law enforcement; and other times with law enforcement about 45 minutes out. 99.9% of people you might meet are decent folks. But there's meth around, etc. I'm not a huge dude. I probably would have already been stabbed if not for carrying a firearm during some of the questionable encounters I've had up there. What do you propose for my use case?
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  If your use case is staying safe and alive, and you already own a gun, my recommendation is that you seek out psychological support every now and then. Obviously, this is difficult in a rural community, which is probably one of the factors that makes committing suicide by gun a much higher risk amongst men in rural communities than murder. Also, regardless of whether police are 45 minutes or 10 minutes away, that's not going to help you during a meth-fuelled knife attack. But, putting all that aside, a gun won't protect you if someone sneaks up on you. If you're in a cabin in the sierras, you probably aren't encountering thousands of people, so your risk of getting stabbed is considerably lower than someone in a city. If someone's far enough away from you a bolt-action is probably good enough to protect you. They're legal in Australia - you can own one if you pass the licensing requirements. Presumably you haven't shot anyone yet, so I'm pretty sure calibre isn't a concern. So the real scenario you're worried about, in your mountain cabin in the Sierras, is someone being close enough to stab you, or too drug-addled or foolhardy to care about being threatened or shot with a 22 and not sneaking up on you. My question to you is why you see that as more of a risk than suicide? Is addressing the use case of defence against violent crime worth the excess risk you are exposing yourself to? Not many people expect to be struck with depression, but it happens, particularly in rural communities - and there's a lot of evidence of that, too.
  - mlyle 7y ago
    I completely disagree with your analysis, but it's not really worth debating. > My question to you is why you see that as more of a risk than suicide? If I decide to kill myself, then I've died with consent. Might happen eventually-- maybe I'll have a bad health diagnosis or something-- I'm not concerned about the "risk".
    - tomlockwood 7y ago
      > I completely disagree with your analysis, but it's not really worth debating. Ok! I think you're considerably overestimating the likelihood of needing to defend yourself with the type of gun you think you need. A bolt action 22 is enough for pretty much anyone, and we really need to weigh up whether the increased risk of handguns and assault rifles is worth their availability. > If I decide to kill myself, then I've died with consent. If you consider people with mental illness as being able to consent rationally, sure. > Might happen eventually-- maybe I'll have a bad health diagnosis or something-- I'm not concerned about the "risk". Like I said earlier, rural men are at very high risk of mental illness and suicide, regardless of having a bad health diagnosis. Suicide significantly increases in times of drought, by the way. Owning a gun also significantly increases the risk of death by suicide. You'd be unequivocally less at risk of dying of gunshot wounds or suffering a gun-related injury if you didn't own a gun. Stay safe out there!
      - mlyle 7y ago
        > Ok! I think you're considerably overestimating the likelihood of needing to defend yourself with the type of gun you think you need. OK. I think you heavily overestimate your own level of knowledge and understanding on this topic. > A bolt action 22 is enough for pretty much anyone, This is a terrible defensive choice. It is unlikely to be available if needed, and doesn't work well at short-moderate range. Longer ranges are too far for credible self defense. Also, the lethality is limited; you're going to need to get lucky to stop someone from stabbing the fuck out of you. There are a whole lot of sketchy people who come out because the area is isolated and police response is slow. I'm not rural BTW; I just spend a couple months a year up there recreationally. > assault rifles is worth their availability. Civilian semi-auto rifles use in crime (which aren't "assault rifles" btw)-- and in suicide-- is negligible. It's rounding error on the statistics. > Owning a gun also significantly increases the risk of death by suicide. Correlation equals causation, amirite? Risk of non-gun suicide increases with firearm ownership, but it's still clearly causative. ;)
CompanionCuuube 7y ago
> Lets reduce gun deaths. They are tragic and often unnecessary. And we can do that by addressing the motivations behind them through social programs. > Also, fear of The Other, Technically, what was demonstrated in that comment was closer to hatred than just fear. There's more than enough gun nuts out there who wish that gun owners would shoot themselves.
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  > And we can do that by addressing the motivations behind them through social programs. Lets do those, and gun control. > Technically, what was demonstrated in that comment was closer to hatred than just fear. I think guns are neat, and if I move back out to the country I'll probably own one. > There's more than enough gun nuts out there who wish that gun owners would shoot themselves. Not me, though.