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Another recommendation: "Automatically grant green cards to postgraduate degree holders." This idea may have some merit, but I want to be very blunt about this
by geebee 7y ago
Another recommendation: "Automatically grant green cards to postgraduate degree holders."
This idea may have some merit, but I want to be very blunt about this - PhD programs aren't doing a good job attracting and retaining good students, at least not the ones who aren't bound by US residency and work rights in their choice about what sort of degree to pursue. Elite Law and Medical schools typically have an attrition rate of below one half of one percent, <0.5%. For PhD programs, it's typically 35%-50%, and while there's less data for MS programs, we're still looking at 25%. Sorry no cite, I documented this a few times in comments, I may go back and get it later.
On a personal level, I was a doctoral student in an engineering program at Berkeley, and I will say with full confidence they couldn't give less of a fuck if a student fails to get the degree. I don't swear on HN much, and if you look at my history, I hope you'll see I don't like to troll. But in this case, I'll repeat it, they could. not. give. a. fuck.
Give these people power to bestow the right to reside in the US, and I assure you, the'll give even less of a fuck if anyone is happy in their program, or if their PhD or even MS programs are competitive with MBA, Law, Medicine, and other programs that require attracting and retaining people who already have the right to live and work in the US.
- majos 7y agoJDs and MDs are not the same as PhDs. The first two are important credentials. A career as a doctor or lawyer is going to be hard without them. But you can certainly have a research career without a PhD, or do something research-adjacent and make more money. Lawyers and doctors don’t seem to have the same incentives.
- geebee 7y agoSo then why are we supposed to be worried specifically about the pipeline of PHDs? Why would we make a special point to grant automatic green cards to degrees that aren’t really necessary?
- majos 7y agoI’m not arguing that a PhD is a meaningless credential, rather that the drop-off in employability (for most things that aren’t faculty jobs) from “PhD holder” to “dropped out after quals, but did some research and can code” is much smaller than the drop off between “MD” and “dropped out of med school, but knows some medicine”. So the gap in attrition rates isn’t solely a function of a better or worse experience. I still think it’s good to try to keep people who get PhDs, especially in areas I think are important, like machine learning research. But I agree that making a PhD an even more useful credential is unlikely to increase the quality of the PhD experience itself.
- geebee 7y agoi think that if you give PhD programs the power to grant green cards, they’ll become even more abusive. So abusive, in fact, that the only real reason to put up with them is because they control your hopes of getting a green card. I an in favor of immigration. I am not in favor of giving PhD programs power over the system so they can remain uncompetitive with the options free people have when choosing a degree or path in life.
- papreclip 7y agoIn this respect, CS is kind of a special case in that "knows how to code" can get you started on a good career regardless of credentials. Outside of CS, a PhD is absolutely an important credential and is just as much of a career game-changer as an MD is