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He seems to have been open to the idea: > I would also like somebody—anybody—to show up with one properly-conducted test report that shows that command keys ar

He seems to have been open to the idea: > I would also like somebody—anybody—to show up with one properly-conducted test report that shows that command keys are equivalent or superior to pull-down menus somewhere, somehow. It's been 30 years since he wrote that. Has anyone in that time been able to produce data that refutes Apple's findings?

bluGill 7y ago
Most likely, but I don't know how to do a search for it. The more items in your menu the slower it is to find things in it. I can type NY faster than I can find New York in your states menu (I picked a state near the middle to ensure you have to scroll, but can't scroll to the end which might be faster if you know). Tog was forced to back off his claim, but this wasn't publicized as much. A well trained expert with key shortcuts used all the time is faster than someone with a mouse - but if you don't use the shortcut often, or there are too many keystrokes the mouse wins.
- befictious 7y ago
  Maybe not the same, but it is a fundamental user experience principle. "Showing users things they can recognize improves usability over needing to recall items from scratch because the extra context helps users retrieve information from memory." https://www.nngroup.com/articles/recognition-and-recall/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/recognition-and-recall/
  - sombremesa 7y ago
    Doesn't this depend on the number of actions available at a given point in time? For example, if I'm "using my Macbook", I could be wanting to do any of no less than a million (not an exaggeration) actions at any given moment. It's infinitely easier for me to open Alfred (or the OSX spotlight for a weaker example) with one keystroke and type the thing I need to do. It simply is not possible to give me a menu (presciently) for this kind of thing. Perhaps if you're restricting context to one app that doesn't have too much going on it's a different story, but compared to 30 years ago there is a lot more people (especially devs, or Starcraft players) need to be doing on the computer at a given time.
    - wtallis 7y ago
      I suspect that graphical/menu input is preferable only for a Goldilocks range of decision tree complexity. Too many options and displaying them all to the user at once is impossible or unhelpful, forcing you to provide a search function (see the Windows Start Menu). Too few options, and the user won't need any prompting to know what choices they have and what keys they can be selected with (eg. Escape vs. Enter).
- bluedino 7y ago
  Exactly. People that use old green screen systems have memorized the keystrokes. Menu 2, 7, 12 is this. 6, 10, 3 is this. Tab tab option P is print.
  - fnord123 7y ago
    People use/used these systems faster than the computer could even run. The input would be buffered so all of it happens correctly but the screen would struggle to keep up.
    - ipython 7y ago
      Sometimes with fatal results. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25
TeMPOraL 7y ago
Everyone ever using a POC application in a store - the DOS/Windows kind, from before the current generation browser-based nonsense? If you saw them, you probably noted they were fully keyboard-operated, had a lot of functionality accessible under function keys, and enabled the clerks to accomplish a lot of tasks without actually looking at the screen(!). You can't beat something like a muscle-remembered "F2, enter, enter, <type name>, tab, enter, enter" with a dropdown menu. I've seen cashiers do the former faster than it'd take to select a single option from a menu. The only way I can imagine Tog's assertion to make sense is if we're comparing a mouse menu vs. looking up a shortcut on a physical, printed cheat sheet (which is essentially a menu-equivalent), for an operation that you're using for the first time in your life. None of that resembles actual use of real software.
luu 7y ago
> It's been 30 years since he wrote that. Has anyone in that time been able to produce data that refutes Apple's findings? Yes, all of the specific experiments Tog describes are bogus. In versions of the experiments where the keyboard user isn't crippled by weird limitations that don't apply to actual computer users, the keyboard is often superior to the mouse (not always, just often): https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/
- tincholio 7y ago
  Exactly this. His test methodology is BS.

bluGill 7y ago

Most likely, but I don't know how to do a search for it. The more items in your menu the slower it is to find things in it. I can type NY faster than I can find New York in your states menu (I picked a state near the middle to ensure you have to scroll, but can't scroll to the end which might be faster if you know). Tog was forced to back off his claim, but this wasn't publicized as much. A well trained expert with key shortcuts used all the time is faster than someone with a mouse - but if you don't use the shortcut often, or there are too many keystrokes the mouse wins.

befictious 7y ago
Maybe not the same, but it is a fundamental user experience principle. "Showing users things they can recognize improves usability over needing to recall items from scratch because the extra context helps users retrieve information from memory." https://www.nngroup.com/articles/recognition-and-recall/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/recognition-and-recall/
- sombremesa 7y ago
  Doesn't this depend on the number of actions available at a given point in time? For example, if I'm "using my Macbook", I could be wanting to do any of no less than a million (not an exaggeration) actions at any given moment. It's infinitely easier for me to open Alfred (or the OSX spotlight for a weaker example) with one keystroke and type the thing I need to do. It simply is not possible to give me a menu (presciently) for this kind of thing. Perhaps if you're restricting context to one app that doesn't have too much going on it's a different story, but compared to 30 years ago there is a lot more people (especially devs, or Starcraft players) need to be doing on the computer at a given time.
  - wtallis 7y ago
    I suspect that graphical/menu input is preferable only for a Goldilocks range of decision tree complexity. Too many options and displaying them all to the user at once is impossible or unhelpful, forcing you to provide a search function (see the Windows Start Menu). Too few options, and the user won't need any prompting to know what choices they have and what keys they can be selected with (eg. Escape vs. Enter).
bluedino 7y ago
Exactly. People that use old green screen systems have memorized the keystrokes. Menu 2, 7, 12 is this. 6, 10, 3 is this. Tab tab option P is print.
- fnord123 7y ago
  People use/used these systems faster than the computer could even run. The input would be buffered so all of it happens correctly but the screen would struggle to keep up.
  - ipython 7y ago
    Sometimes with fatal results. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

TeMPOraL 7y ago

Everyone ever using a POC application in a store - the DOS/Windows kind, from before the current generation browser-based nonsense? If you saw them, you probably noted they were fully keyboard-operated, had a lot of functionality accessible under function keys, and enabled the clerks to accomplish a lot of tasks without actually looking at the screen(!). You can't beat something like a muscle-remembered "F2, enter, enter, <type name>, tab, enter, enter" with a dropdown menu. I've seen cashiers do the former faster than it'd take to select a single option from a menu. The only way I can imagine Tog's assertion to make sense is if we're comparing a mouse menu vs. looking up a shortcut on a physical, printed cheat sheet (which is essentially a menu-equivalent), for an operation that you're using for the first time in your life. None of that resembles actual use of real software.

luu 7y ago

> It's been 30 years since he wrote that. Has anyone in that time been able to produce data that refutes Apple's findings? Yes, all of the specific experiments Tog describes are bogus. In versions of the experiments where the keyboard user isn't crippled by weird limitations that don't apply to actual computer users, the keyboard is often superior to the mouse (not always, just often): https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/ https://danluu.com/keyboard-v-mouse/

tincholio 7y ago
Exactly this. His test methodology is BS.