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You're mistaken. I did not post a parody. I'm serious. That you have a hard time believing that people who disagree with you (like myself) even exist should pe

You're mistaken. I did not post a parody. I'm serious. That you have a hard time believing that people who disagree with you (like myself) even exist should perhaps be a wake up call to open your mind.

lwhi 16y ago
It's just that many (feared and hated) leaders from history took a similar view. I'm surprised so many people on HN share it. (Did I dodge the Godwin's law bullet...?) -- Seriously though, this is exactly the point of view that was used by all colonial movements. It's antiquated, unjust and it's also completely xenophobic. I'm genuinely shocked.
- xenophanes 16y ago
  Respectable people like Jacob Bronowski, David Deutsch, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- not to mention easily over 100 million Americans -- believe this kind of thing. Don't be so shocked by a mainstream point of view. It is not xenophobic to be pro-civilization, to think that allowing people the option to join civilization is good for them, or to wish aliens would come along and share advanced knowledge with us (thus radically transforming our world). Change is not bad or scary on principle. Change is a necessary aspect of improvement. Improvement exists. I'm not going to force my idea of improvement on anyone, but I damn well am going to offer it to them and give them the choice. Maybe you are ignorant of how some Western organizations strive to keep uncivilized people backwards against those people's will by putting up barriers between them and integration with the modern world. They treat them a little like a zoo. That's disgusting. (You might have dodged Godwin's law if you hadn't included the parenthetical about it... :)
  - lwhi 16y ago
    Honestly - I think our politics are so far removed, that talking about this sanely would involve a hours of deprogramming on either of our parts. My biggest problem with your point of view is that you're claiming superiority for our society, when the quality of a culture can't easily be measured. It's equivalent of saying 'mine is the best, because it's mine'. I can't agree with it.
    - xenophanes 16y ago
      I am not programmed with these views. I grew up in an environment heavily leaning the other way. Then I rethought things on my own initiative. I am open to discussion including lengthy discussion. HN is not a suitable place for that. Why don't we talk here: http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list/ http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list/ You can also read some of my philosophy if you like (if you think I am programmed by someone, please let me know who I've copied here! :) http://fallibleideas.com/ http://fallibleideas.com/
      - lwhi 16y ago
        I'm not trying to say that you've been programmed by someone, or that you're being mindless. It's just that sometimes views are so strongly held that discussion is very drawn out - I was being a bit flippant. Thanks for the invite to the group. I will take you up on your offer, I'll also have a read through your site - it looks very interesting. EDIT: I should point out, if I had to choose a school of philosophy, it would be existentialism - we might be a bit like oil and water.
        xenophanes 16y ago
        *reminder* :)
  - mattm 16y ago
    You know, it's a good thing that people are not all the same. There is harm in trying to make everyone alike - both at a micro level and a macro level.
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  "(Did I dodge the Godwin's law bullet...?)" If you have to ask, then no. Of course you haven't.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    I was joking.

lwhi 16y ago

It's just that many (feared and hated) leaders from history took a similar view. I'm surprised so many people on HN share it. (Did I dodge the Godwin's law bullet...?) -- Seriously though, this is exactly the point of view that was used by all colonial movements. It's antiquated, unjust and it's also completely xenophobic. I'm genuinely shocked.

xenophanes 16y ago
Respectable people like Jacob Bronowski, David Deutsch, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- not to mention easily over 100 million Americans -- believe this kind of thing. Don't be so shocked by a mainstream point of view. It is not xenophobic to be pro-civilization, to think that allowing people the option to join civilization is good for them, or to wish aliens would come along and share advanced knowledge with us (thus radically transforming our world). Change is not bad or scary on principle. Change is a necessary aspect of improvement. Improvement exists. I'm not going to force my idea of improvement on anyone, but I damn well am going to offer it to them and give them the choice. Maybe you are ignorant of how some Western organizations strive to keep uncivilized people backwards against those people's will by putting up barriers between them and integration with the modern world. They treat them a little like a zoo. That's disgusting. (You might have dodged Godwin's law if you hadn't included the parenthetical about it... :)
- lwhi 16y ago
  Honestly - I think our politics are so far removed, that talking about this sanely would involve a hours of deprogramming on either of our parts. My biggest problem with your point of view is that you're claiming superiority for our society, when the quality of a culture can't easily be measured. It's equivalent of saying 'mine is the best, because it's mine'. I can't agree with it.
  - xenophanes 16y ago
    I am not programmed with these views. I grew up in an environment heavily leaning the other way. Then I rethought things on my own initiative. I am open to discussion including lengthy discussion. HN is not a suitable place for that. Why don't we talk here: http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list/ http://groups.google.com/group/rational-politics-list/ You can also read some of my philosophy if you like (if you think I am programmed by someone, please let me know who I've copied here! :) http://fallibleideas.com/ http://fallibleideas.com/
    - lwhi 16y ago
      I'm not trying to say that you've been programmed by someone, or that you're being mindless. It's just that sometimes views are so strongly held that discussion is very drawn out - I was being a bit flippant. Thanks for the invite to the group. I will take you up on your offer, I'll also have a read through your site - it looks very interesting. EDIT: I should point out, if I had to choose a school of philosophy, it would be existentialism - we might be a bit like oil and water.
      - xenophanes 16y ago
        *reminder* :)
- mattm 16y ago
  You know, it's a good thing that people are not all the same. There is harm in trying to make everyone alike - both at a micro level and a macro level.
burgerbrain 16y ago
"(Did I dodge the Godwin's law bullet...?)" If you have to ask, then no. Of course you haven't.
- lwhi 16y ago
  I was joking.