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Imagine if you bought a strawman into your comment. Or maybe we don't have to imagine. How many people do you know who brought a gun into their house solely fo

Imagine if you bought a strawman into your comment. Or maybe we don't have to imagine. How many people do you know who brought a gun into their house solely for protection against someone with a gun?

tomlockwood 7y ago
How many people do you know that would be pleased to learn owning a gun actually makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds? It is not possible to have liberty when you are dead.
- masonic 7y ago
  You've made that claim several times on this thread alone but have yet to provide any supporting reference.
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002934313004440 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00029... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 How many references will be sufficient evidence?
    - masonic 7y ago
      None that you merely googled for. I'm looking for content that actually supports your specific claim. 1) a survey on firearms-related deaths that doesn't even look at in-home use or defensive vs offensive use. 2) A review of 26-year-old death certificates. Did you read this part? "Blacks, persons less than 35 years of age or older than age 100 years, and persons who died from external causes of homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury were oversampled in this survey." 3) Uses same cooked data as #2, study done by an anti-gun interest group (VPC). 4) Again uses the same cooked data from 26 years ago. 5) A thirty-year-old phone survey that doesn't even examine in-home gun use. Seriously? So, no, none of those is "evidence" of anything. Now, how many of those were you previously familiar with vs just googling on "gun death home study
      - tomlockwood 7y ago
        > None that you merely googled for. I'm looking for content that actually supports your specific claim. Ok. How do you want me to look for the data? > 1) a survey on firearms-related deaths that doesn't even look at in-home use or defensive vs offensive use. It's not just a survey. > 2) A review of 26-year-old death certificates. Did you read this part? "Blacks, persons less than 35 years of age or older than age 100 years, and persons who died from external causes of homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury were oversampled in this survey." Oversampling doesn't invalidate studies. Are you annoyed they acknowledged it? A less rigorous study wouldn't. > 3) Uses same cooked data as #2, study done by an anti-gun interest group (VPC). What neutral groups do you think are studying this stuff? The CDC? Well, they can start now. > 4) Again uses the same cooked data from 26 years ago. > > 5) A thirty-year-old phone survey that doesn't even examine in-home gun use. Seriously? Could you help me understand what you'd consider "evidence", considering you won't accept articles from peer-reviewed journals. Why does suicide or homicide have to happen "in-home" for it to be valid? I'll provide more references if you can explain exactly what evidence would satisfy you. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time on my part.
        masonic 7y ago
        How do you want me to look for the data? Thank you for acknowledging that you didn't have actual data you were basing that claim on in the first place.
        tomlockwood 7y ago
        Oh I did, its just I never printed it out. It's just so easy to find evidence that gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths and injuries for the owner that I don't really need to save it anywhere. Often when I'm google searching its because I remember the title of something or the general concept. Its something lots of young people do these days rather than printing articles out to scrapbook or saving them to desktop or whatever it is old people do. Let me know what evidence would satisfy you that owning a gun increases the chance of dying via gun. Cheers.
        7y ago
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  The same amount that should laugh off "learning" that percentage of black population makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds.
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    Except if we're trying to identify demographic issues, poverty and gender both explain the correlation better than race. The correlation between guns and gun violence and injuries undermines any claim that owning a gun increases liberty or enables self-defence.

Imagine if you bought a strawman into your comment. Or maybe we don't have to imagine. How many people do you know who brought a gun into their house solely for protection against someone with a gun?

tomlockwood 7y ago

How many people do you know that would be pleased to learn owning a gun actually makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds? It is not possible to have liberty when you are dead.

masonic 7y ago
You've made that claim several times on this thread alone but have yet to provide any supporting reference.
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002934313004440 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00029... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 How many references will be sufficient evidence?
  - masonic 7y ago
    None that you merely googled for. I'm looking for content that actually supports your specific claim. 1) a survey on firearms-related deaths that doesn't even look at in-home use or defensive vs offensive use. 2) A review of 26-year-old death certificates. Did you read this part? "Blacks, persons less than 35 years of age or older than age 100 years, and persons who died from external causes of homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury were oversampled in this survey." 3) Uses same cooked data as #2, study done by an anti-gun interest group (VPC). 4) Again uses the same cooked data from 26 years ago. 5) A thirty-year-old phone survey that doesn't even examine in-home gun use. Seriously? So, no, none of those is "evidence" of anything. Now, how many of those were you previously familiar with vs just googling on "gun death home study
    - tomlockwood 7y ago
      > None that you merely googled for. I'm looking for content that actually supports your specific claim. Ok. How do you want me to look for the data? > 1) a survey on firearms-related deaths that doesn't even look at in-home use or defensive vs offensive use. It's not just a survey. > 2) A review of 26-year-old death certificates. Did you read this part? "Blacks, persons less than 35 years of age or older than age 100 years, and persons who died from external causes of homicide, suicide, and unintentional injury were oversampled in this survey." Oversampling doesn't invalidate studies. Are you annoyed they acknowledged it? A less rigorous study wouldn't. > 3) Uses same cooked data as #2, study done by an anti-gun interest group (VPC). What neutral groups do you think are studying this stuff? The CDC? Well, they can start now. > 4) Again uses the same cooked data from 26 years ago. > > 5) A thirty-year-old phone survey that doesn't even examine in-home gun use. Seriously? Could you help me understand what you'd consider "evidence", considering you won't accept articles from peer-reviewed journals. Why does suicide or homicide have to happen "in-home" for it to be valid? I'll provide more references if you can explain exactly what evidence would satisfy you. Otherwise it seems like a waste of time on my part.
      - masonic 7y ago
        How do you want me to look for the data? Thank you for acknowledging that you didn't have actual data you were basing that claim on in the first place.
        tomlockwood 7y ago
        Oh I did, its just I never printed it out. It's just so easy to find evidence that gun ownership correlates with more gun deaths and injuries for the owner that I don't really need to save it anywhere. Often when I'm google searching its because I remember the title of something or the general concept. Its something lots of young people do these days rather than printing articles out to scrapbook or saving them to desktop or whatever it is old people do. Let me know what evidence would satisfy you that owning a gun increases the chance of dying via gun. Cheers.
        7y ago
CompanionCuuube 7y ago
The same amount that should laugh off "learning" that percentage of black population makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds.
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  Except if we're trying to identify demographic issues, poverty and gender both explain the correlation better than race. The correlation between guns and gun violence and injuries undermines any claim that owning a gun increases liberty or enables self-defence.