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If you buy one share of Toyota Motor Company, you are now a part-owner of a car company, including all the factories and equipment and supply contracts and what

If you buy one share of Toyota Motor Company, you are now a part-owner of a car company, including all the factories and equipment and supply contracts and whatnot that such a thing entails. Owning stock literally entails “owning the means of production”. Buy some stock today and become an evil capitalist!

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
So only if I buy direct? Not index funds?
- pathseeker 7y ago
  Index funds too. What do you think index funds are investing in?
- zrail 7y ago
  (assuming you're asking in good faith) It's the same thing, just on a different scale. If you own, say, one share of VTSAX (Vanguard Total Market Index) you now own, by proxy, 1.8% of one share of Microsoft stock. You don't have any direct voting or economic rights but because of the way a mutual fund is structured you get most of the economic benefit of that fraction of a share. I.e. you get the benefit of most of the capital gain and dividends that it distributes. I would personally say that if you want to actually "own the means of production" then directly owning shares is the way to go, but if you don't actually care about making decisions for specific companies then you get most of the benefits without any of the day-to-day thought and worry by owning shares in a mutual fund.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    I still don't know how that equates to actual ownership of anything - it seems like an incredibly abstract form of ownership, as you get no power, don't share in the profits (if you don't get dividends you only get cash if you sell, that price being only vaguely linked to the current success of the company), and can have your ownership watered down at any time. You own the stock, but that seems incredibly distant from any "means of production".
    - zrail 7y ago
      Yeah it’s pretty abstract. One correction, you definitely do get the dividends that a company pays if you own them through a mutual fund. Funds report their net asset value (NAV) every night and when a company pays dividends it raises the fund’s NAV. US funds are required to pay out dividends to their shareholders as part of their tax status (basically a very specific type of non-profit).
BeetleB 7y ago
> If you buy one share of Toyota Motor Company, you are now a part-owner of a car company, including all the factories and equipment and supply contracts and whatnot that such a thing entails. Assuming this is not specific to Toyota, what does "owning" mean? If I own one share of a company, it's incredibly rare that I have any say on any of the things you listed above. I usually do not get to vote on those. I also do not have any rights to the profits (in the US, but I doubt this is US specific). So in what sense do I own it other than the company writing me a piece of paper stating I do? I mean, if I'm part of a joint venture with others to own a 100 unit apartment complex, I would expect to get some of the profit, at least. Likely about as much as my ownership stake. Shares do not guarantee this. A company can be very profitable, and just keep the money and pay you nothing, saying that "we think the value of the stock will go up and you can get paid that way." I'm not anti-stocks or anything - I own plenty of them. But people should understand what they are and what they are not. And for most English uses of the word "own", it is not ownership.
- philwelch 7y ago
  > I mean, if I'm part of a joint venture with others to own a 100 unit apartment complex, I would expect to get some of the profit, at least. Likely about as much as my ownership stake. You might want to look into REITs.
  - BeetleB 7y ago
    Yes, REITs actually are required to distribute income to shareholders - unlike company stocks.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

So only if I buy direct? Not index funds?

pathseeker 7y ago
Index funds too. What do you think index funds are investing in?
zrail 7y ago
(assuming you're asking in good faith) It's the same thing, just on a different scale. If you own, say, one share of VTSAX (Vanguard Total Market Index) you now own, by proxy, 1.8% of one share of Microsoft stock. You don't have any direct voting or economic rights but because of the way a mutual fund is structured you get most of the economic benefit of that fraction of a share. I.e. you get the benefit of most of the capital gain and dividends that it distributes. I would personally say that if you want to actually "own the means of production" then directly owning shares is the way to go, but if you don't actually care about making decisions for specific companies then you get most of the benefits without any of the day-to-day thought and worry by owning shares in a mutual fund.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I still don't know how that equates to actual ownership of anything - it seems like an incredibly abstract form of ownership, as you get no power, don't share in the profits (if you don't get dividends you only get cash if you sell, that price being only vaguely linked to the current success of the company), and can have your ownership watered down at any time. You own the stock, but that seems incredibly distant from any "means of production".
  - zrail 7y ago
    Yeah it’s pretty abstract. One correction, you definitely do get the dividends that a company pays if you own them through a mutual fund. Funds report their net asset value (NAV) every night and when a company pays dividends it raises the fund’s NAV. US funds are required to pay out dividends to their shareholders as part of their tax status (basically a very specific type of non-profit).

BeetleB 7y ago

> If you buy one share of Toyota Motor Company, you are now a part-owner of a car company, including all the factories and equipment and supply contracts and whatnot that such a thing entails. Assuming this is not specific to Toyota, what does "owning" mean? If I own one share of a company, it's incredibly rare that I have any say on any of the things you listed above. I usually do not get to vote on those. I also do not have any rights to the profits (in the US, but I doubt this is US specific). So in what sense do I own it other than the company writing me a piece of paper stating I do? I mean, if I'm part of a joint venture with others to own a 100 unit apartment complex, I would expect to get some of the profit, at least. Likely about as much as my ownership stake. Shares do not guarantee this. A company can be very profitable, and just keep the money and pay you nothing, saying that "we think the value of the stock will go up and you can get paid that way." I'm not anti-stocks or anything - I own plenty of them. But people should understand what they are and what they are not. And for most English uses of the word "own", it is not ownership.

philwelch 7y ago
> I mean, if I'm part of a joint venture with others to own a 100 unit apartment complex, I would expect to get some of the profit, at least. Likely about as much as my ownership stake. You might want to look into REITs.
- BeetleB 7y ago
  Yes, REITs actually are required to distribute income to shareholders - unlike company stocks.