5 ms·

Doesn't this violate the freedom of speech?

by singularity2001 7y ago

zmzrr 7y ago
I am not saying it necessarily applies to this case, but France, like all countries in the EU, does not have actual freedom of speech.
- chki 7y ago
  That's not true. At least not for the common definitions of "freedom of speech".
  - zmzrr 7y ago
    There are blasphemy laws for instance. Right to be forgotten. Etc.
    - chki 7y ago
      Which means that freedom of speech is (in some cases) limited because of the religious freedom of others. It doesn't mean that freedom of speech doesn't exist, it means that the "balancing exercise" between certain Rights is performed differently. Edit: There is no state in the world where there exists some sort of "absolute freedom of speech".
      - slynn12 7y ago
        Agreed ^. The classic example of screaming fire in a movie theater...
  - swebs 7y ago
    I'm not familiar with French law. Can you point to us where it explicitly grants freedom of speech?
    - chki 7y ago
      I'm also not familiar with French law but this https://www.loc.gov/law/help/freedom-expression/france.php https://www.loc.gov/law/help/freedom-expression/france.php seems to be a good resource. One thing I am familiar with is the European Convention on Human Rights which grants Freedom of speech in Article 10 and which is binding in France.
  - dgellow 7y ago
    The "freedom of speech" discussed here is a legal concept, known as the 1st amendment of the US constitution. The common definition isn't really relevant. And it's true that France doesn't actually have such a thing guaranteed by the law. The closest you have is "liberté d'expression" which isn't as broad as "freedom of speech" in the US sense, and doesn't guarantee the same level of freedom.
    - chki 7y ago
      It's not clear to me why "actual freedom of speech" should be equal to what is guaranteed by the US constitution. That would be like me saying "The US doesn't have the 'Right to Life'" because I'm exclusively applying the European definition of that term. Freedom of expression/freedom of speech is guaranteed in some way in all Western nations, the difference – as you correctly point out – is the degree to which other rights are also taken into account when applying the Right to freedom of speech. But that's an extremely important distinction and it cannot be said that France doesn't have Freedom of speech.
- dgellow 7y ago
  It's ... complicated. France does have a concept of "liberté d'expression" (literally "freedom of speech"), but it isn't equivalent to the US 1st amendment. That won't help you if you don't read french, but you can see here that while the "Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" from 1789 has a concept somehow similar to "freedom of speech", a lot of exceptions have been created since then. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9_d%27expression#En_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9_d%27expression#En... In practice you're correct that France doesn't have what US citizen mean by "freedom of speech". Though that becomes messy because the literal translation of the expression actually exists in the law, but with a different meaning.
  - zmzrr 7y ago
    Yes, I agree. I don't like to bring up the boogeyman of the year, but China also has a concept of freedom of speech, and see how it works for them. Just saying you have it doesn't mean anything when there are lots of exceptions. Blasphemy laws are an example. Absolute freedom of speech is indeed not existent anywhere, and probably impractical. But US-level freedom of speech is fine (which is what we usually talk about when we say "freedom of speech"), and France does not have that.
IanDrake 7y ago
I think you mean freedom of the press? Libel is still illegal. Frankly, the problem with the press in the US is that it's lost all credibility and is mostly filled with activist instead of journalists.
swebs 7y ago
The French constitution does not guarantee Freedom of Speech. That is a uniquely American thing.
- humanrebar 7y ago
  Eh. The original philosophy, liberalism, is European in origin, including some notable French contributions.
- decebalus1 7y ago
  American exceptionalism is a uniquely American thing. Freedom of speech in the constitution is not. Even Cuba has freedom of speech guaranteed by the constitution.

Doesn't this violate the freedom of speech?

I am not saying it necessarily applies to this case, but France, like all countries in the EU, does not have actual freedom of speech.

chki 7y ago
That's not true. At least not for the common definitions of "freedom of speech".
- zmzrr 7y ago
  There are blasphemy laws for instance. Right to be forgotten. Etc.
  - chki 7y ago
    Which means that freedom of speech is (in some cases) limited because of the religious freedom of others. It doesn't mean that freedom of speech doesn't exist, it means that the "balancing exercise" between certain Rights is performed differently. Edit: There is no state in the world where there exists some sort of "absolute freedom of speech".
    - slynn12 7y ago
      Agreed ^. The classic example of screaming fire in a movie theater...
- swebs 7y ago
  I'm not familiar with French law. Can you point to us where it explicitly grants freedom of speech?
  - chki 7y ago
    I'm also not familiar with French law but this https://www.loc.gov/law/help/freedom-expression/france.php https://www.loc.gov/law/help/freedom-expression/france.php seems to be a good resource. One thing I am familiar with is the European Convention on Human Rights which grants Freedom of speech in Article 10 and which is binding in France.
- dgellow 7y ago
  The "freedom of speech" discussed here is a legal concept, known as the 1st amendment of the US constitution. The common definition isn't really relevant. And it's true that France doesn't actually have such a thing guaranteed by the law. The closest you have is "liberté d'expression" which isn't as broad as "freedom of speech" in the US sense, and doesn't guarantee the same level of freedom.
  - chki 7y ago
    It's not clear to me why "actual freedom of speech" should be equal to what is guaranteed by the US constitution. That would be like me saying "The US doesn't have the 'Right to Life'" because I'm exclusively applying the European definition of that term. Freedom of expression/freedom of speech is guaranteed in some way in all Western nations, the difference – as you correctly point out – is the degree to which other rights are also taken into account when applying the Right to freedom of speech. But that's an extremely important distinction and it cannot be said that France doesn't have Freedom of speech.
dgellow 7y ago
It's ... complicated. France does have a concept of "liberté d'expression" (literally "freedom of speech"), but it isn't equivalent to the US 1st amendment. That won't help you if you don't read french, but you can see here that while the "Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen" from 1789 has a concept somehow similar to "freedom of speech", a lot of exceptions have been created since then. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9_d%27expression#En_France https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9_d%27expression#En... In practice you're correct that France doesn't have what US citizen mean by "freedom of speech". Though that becomes messy because the literal translation of the expression actually exists in the law, but with a different meaning.
- zmzrr 7y ago
  Yes, I agree. I don't like to bring up the boogeyman of the year, but China also has a concept of freedom of speech, and see how it works for them. Just saying you have it doesn't mean anything when there are lots of exceptions. Blasphemy laws are an example. Absolute freedom of speech is indeed not existent anywhere, and probably impractical. But US-level freedom of speech is fine (which is what we usually talk about when we say "freedom of speech"), and France does not have that.

IanDrake 7y ago

I think you mean freedom of the press? Libel is still illegal. Frankly, the problem with the press in the US is that it's lost all credibility and is mostly filled with activist instead of journalists.

swebs 7y ago

The French constitution does not guarantee Freedom of Speech. That is a uniquely American thing.

humanrebar 7y ago
Eh. The original philosophy, liberalism, is European in origin, including some notable French contributions.
decebalus1 7y ago
American exceptionalism is a uniquely American thing. Freedom of speech in the constitution is not. Even Cuba has freedom of speech guaranteed by the constitution.