4 ms·

What could go wrong. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/

by hhas01 7y ago

Melting_Harps 7y ago
While you have a valid point, and one can point at the Human Right violations in Tibet, the Ugyhur camps, and Hong Kong to point and why this is all an incredibly horrid idea. I do think that China being the trailblazer in Biotech will and continue to happen, the 'Crispr babies' is an example of what should of happened in the Public domain, and now it will likely be kept indefinitely in the realms of academia and other government funded labs, we need this advancement in the Human Gene editing, Mars colonization is the most glaring one, but instead it seems that the cost of that is your career as seen with He Jiankui. He opened pandora's box, their is no going back, and for some of us in the Biohacker community we see this open, 'looser' experimentation as progress from the corrupt Western model; most of whom were actually commending Dr. Jiankui for his efforts in private, and then condemning him in public when they realized that their funding would be cut if he took his side. As a biologist and a (former?) member of the scientific community, I see the potential for good outweighing the bad here, if only we set some Humane controls in place: as in the subject(s) must be willing and consenting and doing so of their own volition. If this doesn't make any person in the Health Sciences have a grin ear to ear they need to reconsider why they even bother doing it at all: > After spending three weeks in the hospital in May — during which white blood cells were removed from his body, genetically engineered, and then infused back in — an analysis of Zhang’s bone marrow in June showed his body was clear of cancer. I can't wait to see this documentary, and not just because it has our Biohacker all-stars in it, but what it can do if we collectively embrace this as a reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv3Ibxw-a0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv3Ibxw-a0
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  > if only we set some Humane controls in place Sorry but that's brutally naive, even ignoring we talk about China here. Usages will be for more efficient warfare, more obedient general populace, easier surveillance of the same, and of course enhancing super-rich beyond what it means to be a human being. Some of the progress will eventually trickle down to common population, but I can see very easily how this could be a net (and huge one) loss for mankind as a whole.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    > Sorry but that's brutally naive, Hence why I mentioned and dropped the Biohacker motivation to all of this, which in case you are unaware one of has many goals: it's biggest aim(s) is making tech like gene-editing more accessible to the general public and open-sourcing as much of this as possible. The article above is actually focused on 80s technology (CAR-T) to modify T-cells in case you didn't read it. This is all old-hat in the Medical field, the problem is that it was extremely cost prohibitive, the only real noteable advent here is that the Chinese cell therapy company just expedited the process and total turn around which subsequently dropped the cost. Gene-editing is already taking place, in China and elsewhere: whether you like it or not, that much is clear. Furthermore, Dr. Zayber, who is in Code of the Wild by the way, is an Ex-NASA researcher (who was studying a microbe to help terra-form Mars) got in trouble for doing just that with his ODIN project this year, they dropped the inquiry once they realized he wasn't violating any Law: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-15/biohacker-investigation-is-dropped-by-california-medical-board https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-15/biohacker... It is because of people like him/us why its not 'naive' at all to make this tech mainstream, and force them to publish their work in peer reviewed journals so those of us who studied Biology can in turn re-create their work, in fact Josiah goes on to say how he can synthesize a now-inaccessible drug that was killed off in Phase 2 of clinical trials on just what was published as an example of why and how this will benefit us. It was deemed not Market viable, but the treatment is still effective. I have no doubt that attempts will be made for this tech to be used for those purposes, assuming it hasn't already in clandestine operations; but guess what, the surveillance based social-media reward system many of you helped build and maintain is far more effective at creating subservience and quelling dissidence amongst the general population, how that has all unfolded makes the need to manufacture gene-edited serfs entirely moot. The PRC/CCP weaponized that platform and created Sesame Credit, now you are making the equivalent argument that things like Myspace/FB/Twitter etc... should have never been explored because tyrants will do what they always do with any tech and you think that's a valid point? You opine for Humanity as though that 'loss' hasn't already happened, I'd say this (and the potential Nueralink may have in the future) are the few attempts to re-gain something from that loss. Big Pharma already created a tiered caste system in the US and elsewhere, this is at least one way to try and regain some agency in what has been a horrid one-sided onslaught.
- hhas01 7y ago
  “Biohacker community” Sorry, but you appear to have gotten Religion in your science. Not that I give a crap as long as it’s only your funeral, but like all evangelicals you never can just stop there. “corrupt Western model” Paranoid and racist self-serving bollocks. There’s science and scientists, and then there’s fantasy-prone punks with delusions of grandeur. Try killing a patient, then get back to us.
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818920.
  - Melting_Harps 7y ago
    > Sorry, but you appear to have gotten Religion in your science. I'm not drawing parallels between the two as I'm personally not Religious and despise the affects dogmatic faith has had on Science (think stem cell research ban in the US), but in Truth the two were once seen as the same; Newtonian physics and mechanics was after all based and conjured from his fervent belief in Christianity and its application on understanding the Natural World. > Paranoid and racist self-serving bollocks. There’s science and scientists, and then there’s fantasy-prone punks with delusions of grandeur. Try killing a patient, then get back to us. I'm a Westerner born of Western parents and raised and lived my entire life in the Western World, in the US and Europe respectively. I'm not sure what racism has to do with the corrupt profit models of Bayer/Novartis/Dupont et al, who quite honestly are just doing the same evil stuff they did during WWII in their pursuit of profit at all costs--when I was in my WESTERN University studying Biology I saw how Eli Lilly kicked off a Cardiologist off the FDA panel because he refused to acquiesce that their product didn't prove it wasn't harmful: https://www.reuters.com/article/congress-prasugrel-idUST20321520090227 https://www.reuters.com/article/congress-prasugrel-idUST2032... Years later this happened with the same corp who pulled their FDA APPROVED drug for not meeting its targets: https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lilly-announces-withdrawal-xigrisr-following-recent-clinical https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-detail... I can go on, but I actually studied this and unlike many of you I had undergo a lot financial hardships to work in this Industry, only to see this level of corruption as the norm, not the exception; so I enough to know that the FDA system is broken: its interest are not aligned with the welfare of the General Public and it never was meant to. Its their to prevent others from taking Market Share from the established Industry players who lobby the government to enact legislation and dismiss their cases when they don't comply by their own imposed Laws and get a bunch of people sick, poisoned or killed. At least if what this article is alluding to is happening in China, specifically with these terminal cancer patients, they are given the choice and opportunity to explore all options they see fit; which cam include experimental drugs so we can in turn garner more insight and learn from these processes if its documented and published in medical/health journals. Death is a certain variable in the Health Sciences, that's why its so important, and you needed to understand that in your Freshman year of undergrad (or sooner) to get why any of this matters. Have you ever been in an ER or Cancer-ward? People die everyday in Hospitals because they are denied access to research level treatment(s) as an option due to legal matters, not scientific ones, this isn't the 'punk' view, this the root for why its broken: let people decide what they should do with their bodies, retaining some level of agency into death is least we can do for those hapless souls. Many would forfeit doing so anyway, I should know: my mother is an example of just that, luckily she is healthy now, but radiation and chemotherapy is a barbaric relic akin to that of leeches when things like CAR-T have been a norm before I was even born. The only delusions here are your misplaced faith on the aforementioned system despite all the evidence to why you should question its validity.

What could go wrong. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/

by hhas01 7y ago

What could go wrong. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/ https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scientific-fraud-in-china/

Melting_Harps 7y ago

While you have a valid point, and one can point at the Human Right violations in Tibet, the Ugyhur camps, and Hong Kong to point and why this is all an incredibly horrid idea. I do think that China being the trailblazer in Biotech will and continue to happen, the 'Crispr babies' is an example of what should of happened in the Public domain, and now it will likely be kept indefinitely in the realms of academia and other government funded labs, we need this advancement in the Human Gene editing, Mars colonization is the most glaring one, but instead it seems that the cost of that is your career as seen with He Jiankui. He opened pandora's box, their is no going back, and for some of us in the Biohacker community we see this open, 'looser' experimentation as progress from the corrupt Western model; most of whom were actually commending Dr. Jiankui for his efforts in private, and then condemning him in public when they realized that their funding would be cut if he took his side. As a biologist and a (former?) member of the scientific community, I see the potential for good outweighing the bad here, if only we set some Humane controls in place: as in the subject(s) must be willing and consenting and doing so of their own volition. If this doesn't make any person in the Health Sciences have a grin ear to ear they need to reconsider why they even bother doing it at all: > After spending three weeks in the hospital in May — during which white blood cells were removed from his body, genetically engineered, and then infused back in — an analysis of Zhang’s bone marrow in June showed his body was clear of cancer. I can't wait to see this documentary, and not just because it has our Biohacker all-stars in it, but what it can do if we collectively embrace this as a reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv3Ibxw-a0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wyv3Ibxw-a0

saiya-jin 7y ago
> if only we set some Humane controls in place Sorry but that's brutally naive, even ignoring we talk about China here. Usages will be for more efficient warfare, more obedient general populace, easier surveillance of the same, and of course enhancing super-rich beyond what it means to be a human being. Some of the progress will eventually trickle down to common population, but I can see very easily how this could be a net (and huge one) loss for mankind as a whole.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > Sorry but that's brutally naive, Hence why I mentioned and dropped the Biohacker motivation to all of this, which in case you are unaware one of has many goals: it's biggest aim(s) is making tech like gene-editing more accessible to the general public and open-sourcing as much of this as possible. The article above is actually focused on 80s technology (CAR-T) to modify T-cells in case you didn't read it. This is all old-hat in the Medical field, the problem is that it was extremely cost prohibitive, the only real noteable advent here is that the Chinese cell therapy company just expedited the process and total turn around which subsequently dropped the cost. Gene-editing is already taking place, in China and elsewhere: whether you like it or not, that much is clear. Furthermore, Dr. Zayber, who is in Code of the Wild by the way, is an Ex-NASA researcher (who was studying a microbe to help terra-form Mars) got in trouble for doing just that with his ODIN project this year, they dropped the inquiry once they realized he wasn't violating any Law: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-15/biohacker-investigation-is-dropped-by-california-medical-board https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-15/biohacker... It is because of people like him/us why its not 'naive' at all to make this tech mainstream, and force them to publish their work in peer reviewed journals so those of us who studied Biology can in turn re-create their work, in fact Josiah goes on to say how he can synthesize a now-inaccessible drug that was killed off in Phase 2 of clinical trials on just what was published as an example of why and how this will benefit us. It was deemed not Market viable, but the treatment is still effective. I have no doubt that attempts will be made for this tech to be used for those purposes, assuming it hasn't already in clandestine operations; but guess what, the surveillance based social-media reward system many of you helped build and maintain is far more effective at creating subservience and quelling dissidence amongst the general population, how that has all unfolded makes the need to manufacture gene-edited serfs entirely moot. The PRC/CCP weaponized that platform and created Sesame Credit, now you are making the equivalent argument that things like Myspace/FB/Twitter etc... should have never been explored because tyrants will do what they always do with any tech and you think that's a valid point? You opine for Humanity as though that 'loss' hasn't already happened, I'd say this (and the potential Nueralink may have in the future) are the few attempts to re-gain something from that loss. Big Pharma already created a tiered caste system in the US and elsewhere, this is at least one way to try and regain some agency in what has been a horrid one-sided onslaught.
hhas01 7y ago
“Biohacker community” Sorry, but you appear to have gotten Religion in your science. Not that I give a crap as long as it’s only your funeral, but like all evangelicals you never can just stop there. “corrupt Western model” Paranoid and racist self-serving bollocks. There’s science and scientists, and then there’s fantasy-prone punks with delusions of grandeur. Try killing a patient, then get back to us.
- dang 7y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21818920.
- Melting_Harps 7y ago
  > Sorry, but you appear to have gotten Religion in your science. I'm not drawing parallels between the two as I'm personally not Religious and despise the affects dogmatic faith has had on Science (think stem cell research ban in the US), but in Truth the two were once seen as the same; Newtonian physics and mechanics was after all based and conjured from his fervent belief in Christianity and its application on understanding the Natural World. > Paranoid and racist self-serving bollocks. There’s science and scientists, and then there’s fantasy-prone punks with delusions of grandeur. Try killing a patient, then get back to us. I'm a Westerner born of Western parents and raised and lived my entire life in the Western World, in the US and Europe respectively. I'm not sure what racism has to do with the corrupt profit models of Bayer/Novartis/Dupont et al, who quite honestly are just doing the same evil stuff they did during WWII in their pursuit of profit at all costs--when I was in my WESTERN University studying Biology I saw how Eli Lilly kicked off a Cardiologist off the FDA panel because he refused to acquiesce that their product didn't prove it wasn't harmful: https://www.reuters.com/article/congress-prasugrel-idUST20321520090227 https://www.reuters.com/article/congress-prasugrel-idUST2032... Years later this happened with the same corp who pulled their FDA APPROVED drug for not meeting its targets: https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lilly-announces-withdrawal-xigrisr-following-recent-clinical https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-detail... I can go on, but I actually studied this and unlike many of you I had undergo a lot financial hardships to work in this Industry, only to see this level of corruption as the norm, not the exception; so I enough to know that the FDA system is broken: its interest are not aligned with the welfare of the General Public and it never was meant to. Its their to prevent others from taking Market Share from the established Industry players who lobby the government to enact legislation and dismiss their cases when they don't comply by their own imposed Laws and get a bunch of people sick, poisoned or killed. At least if what this article is alluding to is happening in China, specifically with these terminal cancer patients, they are given the choice and opportunity to explore all options they see fit; which cam include experimental drugs so we can in turn garner more insight and learn from these processes if its documented and published in medical/health journals. Death is a certain variable in the Health Sciences, that's why its so important, and you needed to understand that in your Freshman year of undergrad (or sooner) to get why any of this matters. Have you ever been in an ER or Cancer-ward? People die everyday in Hospitals because they are denied access to research level treatment(s) as an option due to legal matters, not scientific ones, this isn't the 'punk' view, this the root for why its broken: let people decide what they should do with their bodies, retaining some level of agency into death is least we can do for those hapless souls. Many would forfeit doing so anyway, I should know: my mother is an example of just that, luckily she is healthy now, but radiation and chemotherapy is a barbaric relic akin to that of leeches when things like CAR-T have been a norm before I was even born. The only delusions here are your misplaced faith on the aforementioned system despite all the evidence to why you should question its validity.