4 ms·

> So we should curb people's rights to self defense because some people might hurt themselves with the tools involved? Guns don't help with that goal. Having

> So we should curb people's rights to self defense because some people might hurt themselves with the tools involved? Guns don't help with that goal. Having a gun makes you more likely to die of gunshot wounds, either self-inflicted or by others.

ryeights 7y ago
That depends entirely on you and your family's level of responsibility around firearms. Unless you act like an idiot with regards to guns, you are unlikely to be accidentally injured by them. That is what I mean by 'least common denominator': people shouldn't be denied firearms because certain people can't be responsible with them.
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  Awesome. Sounds like you're in favour of reasonable gun control via strict license requirements and tests. You know - to make sure irresponsible idiots don't get them. We agree.
  - ryeights 7y ago
    Sort of. I don't believe its the government's job (nor position) to protect idiots from themselves, so I would not support such regulations.
    - tomlockwood 7y ago
      I dunno, maybe this is a super controversial opinion but I think it may be harmful to categorize a bunch of people who commit suicide as idiots. Particularly given that those people in America are more and more often veterans and men. I also think that by some tragic circumstance or another a lot of those mentally ill people have no friends or family to support them. I'm happy to pay the government to care for those "idiots", to be frank. What do you think?
      - ryeights 7y ago
        Note that I said 'accidentally injured' in my original comment; obviously suicide is a different matter entirely. This might actually be a controversial opinion, but I believe people who want to end their lives have a right to do so. Barring that, we already have measures in place (e.g. involuntary hospitalization) for the acutely suicidal. For others, why stop at taking away their guns? Take away their kitchen knives, Tylenol, and spare rope while you're at it. Hell, throw them in a padded cell so they aren't tempted to visit any bridges or tall buildings. Taking away guns doesn't treat the actual problem.
        tomlockwood 7y ago
        Agreed on all counts
      - MikeAmelung 7y ago
        According to this page: https://www.who.int/gho/mental_health/suicide_rates/en/ https://www.who.int/gho/mental_health/suicide_rates/en/ Suicide rates are: 21.1/100k for US males 17.4/100k for Australian males Guess you aren't paying enough?
        tomlockwood 7y ago
        You're right, we should increase support for mental health services.
masonic 7y ago
Similarly, having a syringe in your house correlates to increased death risk by opioid poisoning, so... ban syringes?
- tomlockwood 7y ago
  Imagine if you bought a syringe into your house to prevent syringe related deaths.
  - CompanionCuuube 7y ago
    Imagine if you bought a strawman into your comment. Or maybe we don't have to imagine. How many people do you know who brought a gun into their house solely for protection against someone with a gun?
    - tomlockwood 7y ago
      How many people do you know that would be pleased to learn owning a gun actually makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds? It is not possible to have liberty when you are dead.
      - masonic 7y ago
        You've made that claim several times on this thread alone but have yet to provide any supporting reference.
        tomlockwood 7y ago
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002934313004440 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00029... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 How many references will be sufficient evidence?

ryeights 7y ago

That depends entirely on you and your family's level of responsibility around firearms. Unless you act like an idiot with regards to guns, you are unlikely to be accidentally injured by them. That is what I mean by 'least common denominator': people shouldn't be denied firearms because certain people can't be responsible with them.

tomlockwood 7y ago
Awesome. Sounds like you're in favour of reasonable gun control via strict license requirements and tests. You know - to make sure irresponsible idiots don't get them. We agree.
- ryeights 7y ago
  Sort of. I don't believe its the government's job (nor position) to protect idiots from themselves, so I would not support such regulations.
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    I dunno, maybe this is a super controversial opinion but I think it may be harmful to categorize a bunch of people who commit suicide as idiots. Particularly given that those people in America are more and more often veterans and men. I also think that by some tragic circumstance or another a lot of those mentally ill people have no friends or family to support them. I'm happy to pay the government to care for those "idiots", to be frank. What do you think?
    - ryeights 7y ago
      Note that I said 'accidentally injured' in my original comment; obviously suicide is a different matter entirely. This might actually be a controversial opinion, but I believe people who want to end their lives have a right to do so. Barring that, we already have measures in place (e.g. involuntary hospitalization) for the acutely suicidal. For others, why stop at taking away their guns? Take away their kitchen knives, Tylenol, and spare rope while you're at it. Hell, throw them in a padded cell so they aren't tempted to visit any bridges or tall buildings. Taking away guns doesn't treat the actual problem.
      - tomlockwood 7y ago
        Agreed on all counts
    - MikeAmelung 7y ago
      According to this page: https://www.who.int/gho/mental_health/suicide_rates/en/ https://www.who.int/gho/mental_health/suicide_rates/en/ Suicide rates are: 21.1/100k for US males 17.4/100k for Australian males Guess you aren't paying enough?
      - tomlockwood 7y ago
        You're right, we should increase support for mental health services.

masonic 7y ago

Similarly, having a syringe in your house correlates to increased death risk by opioid poisoning, so... ban syringes?

tomlockwood 7y ago
Imagine if you bought a syringe into your house to prevent syringe related deaths.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago
  Imagine if you bought a strawman into your comment. Or maybe we don't have to imagine. How many people do you know who brought a gun into their house solely for protection against someone with a gun?
  - tomlockwood 7y ago
    How many people do you know that would be pleased to learn owning a gun actually makes their family more prone to dying of gunshot wounds? It is not possible to have liberty when you are dead.
    - masonic 7y ago
      You've made that claim several times on this thread alone but have yet to provide any supporting reference.
      - tomlockwood 7y ago
        https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0002934313004440 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00029... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15522849 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12764330 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371731 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8485675 How many references will be sufficient evidence?