3 ms·

> The original AWB proposals were sane and straightforward: they intended to regulate any semi-automatic long gun with a detachable magazine. The last time I s

by wl 7y ago

> The original AWB proposals were sane and straightforward: they intended to regulate any semi-automatic long gun with a detachable magazine. The last time I saw you in a discussion like this, I asked you for a source and all you could give me was a draft bill with a few guns banned by name. No general ban on semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines. I think you're wrong on this. You should stop repeating this unless you can back it up.

tptacek 7y ago
I appreciate the attempt at a mic-drop here, but I actually responded to your comment with a link to a bill that was not merely "a few guns banned by name". Maybe you missed it; my response came a day or two after you wrote your comment. I'll hold on to my argument, thanks.
- wl 7y ago
  This is what you linked to: https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/386/text?r=1187&s=4 https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/386... Were you thinking of something else? Because I really don't see how it supports your argument.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    You've just linked to a bill that effectively allows the attorney general to designate any semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine an "assault weapon". There's not a barrel shroud to be found in it.
    - wl 7y ago
      It's an I-Know-It-When-I-See-It standard that would not have survived legal challenge with carveouts for Jimmy's squirrel rifle and grandpappy's hunting rifle. Sure, it's not feature tests, but it's not any more rational. If the intent was to ban semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines, that law does not do that. If you believe that this law is "sane and straightforward," what rational basis is there for banning some semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines while leaving others available at the whim of the Attorney General?
      - tptacek 7y ago
        I was going to type out a rebuttal to this, because I think you're mischaracterizing a straightforward and somewhat technical proposal. But I realize that's besides the point. You don't like this proposal, which is fine. But you had no footing to make the argument that it didn't exist at all, or that it didn't back up my argument. Concede that, and I'm happy to keep discussing.
        wl 7y ago
        I wouldn't like proposals that banned semiautomatic weapons with detachable or high capacity fixed magazines, either, but I'd concede that such proposals make a rational distinction in potentially dangerous functionality. My problem specifically with this proposal as well as subsequent ones that include feature tests and the like is that they fail to make any rational distinction. You're entitled to your opinion that the bill in question is a "sane and straightforward" approach in contrast to subsequent proposals that aren't because of irrational feature tests. I just don't think that's a defensible one. Giving the Attorney General and Secretary of the Treasury wide latitude to say "this semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine is ok but this other one isn't" is just as arbitrary as later feature tests. And if anything, this proposal is worse public policy: one administration could add every eligible semi-automatic rifle to the list and the next one could make the list empty. Either ban semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines or don't. Maybe exempt rimfire from any ban or don't. If there's a rational distinction beyond that to be made, make it.
        tptacek 7y ago
        You can use the word "sane" to mean anything you want it to. As you well know, since you're the one who brought that long, detailed previous thread into this one, the meaning I'm giving it "not based on cosmetic features like grips and barrel shrouds". The basis for my argument is factual, and you should concede that, because you yourself set the tone and expectation of rigor on this thread, and you aren't living up to that standard. That I'm not even advocating for that particular proposal is besides the point. You accused me of arguing in bad faith, and I am now pointing out that it's in fact you that are doing that now. It's an easy problem to correct; you simply have to say "I was wrong about that, let's move on".

by wl 7y ago

tptacek 7y ago

I appreciate the attempt at a mic-drop here, but I actually responded to your comment with a link to a bill that was not merely "a few guns banned by name". Maybe you missed it; my response came a day or two after you wrote your comment. I'll hold on to my argument, thanks.

wl 7y ago
This is what you linked to: https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/386/text?r=1187&s=4 https://www.congress.gov/bill/101st-congress/senate-bill/386... Were you thinking of something else? Because I really don't see how it supports your argument.
- tptacek 7y ago
  You've just linked to a bill that effectively allows the attorney general to designate any semi-automatic rifle with a detachable magazine an "assault weapon". There's not a barrel shroud to be found in it.
  - wl 7y ago
    It's an I-Know-It-When-I-See-It standard that would not have survived legal challenge with carveouts for Jimmy's squirrel rifle and grandpappy's hunting rifle. Sure, it's not feature tests, but it's not any more rational. If the intent was to ban semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines, that law does not do that. If you believe that this law is "sane and straightforward," what rational basis is there for banning some semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines while leaving others available at the whim of the Attorney General?
    - tptacek 7y ago
      I was going to type out a rebuttal to this, because I think you're mischaracterizing a straightforward and somewhat technical proposal. But I realize that's besides the point. You don't like this proposal, which is fine. But you had no footing to make the argument that it didn't exist at all, or that it didn't back up my argument. Concede that, and I'm happy to keep discussing.
      - wl 7y ago
        I wouldn't like proposals that banned semiautomatic weapons with detachable or high capacity fixed magazines, either, but I'd concede that such proposals make a rational distinction in potentially dangerous functionality. My problem specifically with this proposal as well as subsequent ones that include feature tests and the like is that they fail to make any rational distinction. You're entitled to your opinion that the bill in question is a "sane and straightforward" approach in contrast to subsequent proposals that aren't because of irrational feature tests. I just don't think that's a defensible one. Giving the Attorney General and Secretary of the Treasury wide latitude to say "this semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine is ok but this other one isn't" is just as arbitrary as later feature tests. And if anything, this proposal is worse public policy: one administration could add every eligible semi-automatic rifle to the list and the next one could make the list empty. Either ban semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines or don't. Maybe exempt rimfire from any ban or don't. If there's a rational distinction beyond that to be made, make it.
        tptacek 7y ago
        You can use the word "sane" to mean anything you want it to. As you well know, since you're the one who brought that long, detailed previous thread into this one, the meaning I'm giving it "not based on cosmetic features like grips and barrel shrouds". The basis for my argument is factual, and you should concede that, because you yourself set the tone and expectation of rigor on this thread, and you aren't living up to that standard. That I'm not even advocating for that particular proposal is besides the point. You accused me of arguing in bad faith, and I am now pointing out that it's in fact you that are doing that now. It's an easy problem to correct; you simply have to say "I was wrong about that, let's move on".