4 ms·

While I was a student, I was employed, part-time, as a contractor doing software development. It was incredibly beneficial; my employer was very flexible and I

While I was a student, I was employed, part-time, as a contractor doing software development. It was incredibly beneficial; my employer was very flexible and I worked as I had time. This paid a significant portion of my college expenses and gave me invaluable work experience without which I would not be where I am today. I would have a worse job and more debt. This California law is ridiculous. Under it, I could not hold such a position. It is not the place of the state to dictate the terms of a private contract between two consenting parties.

watwatinthewat 7y ago
Why does this prevent that experience from happening? That's a genuine question, as I perhaps/probably don't know enough about the law to get it.
dariusj18 7y ago
I'm not sure what this law would change about being able to work part time with flexible hours. Could you elaborate?
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Sure. The new bill establishes that an employer must demonstrate the following requirements to hire someone as a contractor (quoting from the bill): * the person is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work * the person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business * the person is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business I wouldn't have been even close to meeting those. I had some freedom about how the work was performed, so number one is a maybe. I was doing software development for a software development company, so numbers two and three are hard "no"s. As a college student, I didn't care about insurance, or vacation time, or being a full employee. I came to a mutually-beneficial agreement with my employer, and this bill would have prevented that. Also of note: California bans un-paid internships in the "free labor" sense. While this sounds good on the surface, it's not. I held internships in middle and high school that were awesome experience when I had time to burn, and those proved incredibly helpful in landing later paid internships, contract work, college acceptances, and salaried jobs. They were incredibly helpful, and I learned a ton, but I couldn't have done that were I a resident of California. This bill is written to target the gig economy. Many college students I know pay make good money doing gig economy work. And many working-class teens I know who typically work fast food can now use gig economy shifts to fill in when they can't get shifts lined up working fast food or other typical jobs. This bill is awful for almost everyone, because it removes opportunities without providing alternative ones. The state does a great job of taking them away, and a comparatively-horrible job of creating them. Were I a teen-age Californian high-schooler, I'd now be looking at working fast food rather than software development.
  - dariusj18 7y ago
    I guess my question is more, "Why can they not just hire you as a part time employee with a flexible schedule?" Not, "Why can they not continue to do what they previously did?"
gregd 7y ago
Was this a work study program or internship through your college? Or did you just take a contracting position at a company to help make ends meet?
- big_chungus 7y ago
  I held some un-paid internships in middle school and early high school. Learned programming, took software engineering classes, and proved merit w/un-paid internships because hiring a kid is risky. Late HS and college had contracting positions to make ends meet (esp. in college, they took a big chunk out of tuition).
drawkbox 7y ago
AB5 wouldn't affect you under the "Professionals" or "Professional Services" label. [1][2] Software contracting is largely excluded especially freelance. The employer would just have to follow the AB test which is beneficial to contractors: Under the ABC test, a worker is presumed to be an employee unless the company proves that the worker: (A) Is free from the control and direction of the company in performing work, both practically and in the contractual agreement between the parties; and (B) Performs work that is outside the usual course of the company’s business; and (C) Is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as the work performed for the company. If there was ever any issues with (C) which would be the only possible conflict, software/product/creative/engineers can get LLCs to to corp to corp contracting. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB5 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... [2] https://www.dwt.com/blogs/employment-labor-and-benefits/2019/09/california-ab5-employment-law https://www.dwt.com/blogs/employment-labor-and-benefits/2019...
- big_chungus 7y ago
  Your assumptions are incorrect; I have already showed why I wouldn't have been able to work in a prior comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21810451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21810451 You're wrong that the "ABC" test is beneficial to contractors. I was doing software development for a software development company, so I wouldn't have passed B. As you have already agreed, I'd have failed C. Finally, I may or may not have met A. Your response to this is, "get an LLC?" You think gig economy workers and high schoolers are capable of this? As you said, that's fine for professionals with those kinds of resources and expertise (or the money for a lawyer). It's also different paperwork for the company. Showing that the best solution is to bypass the law via a loophole also doesn't exactly extol it's virtues.
  - drawkbox 7y ago
    "Professional Services" and "Professionals" are exempt which includes engineers/software development. See here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21811997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21811997), engineers are AB5 exempt by law. Also, most freelancing software engineers and developers have their own LLC before they even begin. Asking a software engineer to make an LLC is easy, a bunch of food workers may not have the funds. I know almost zero developers that are contractors or freelancers that don't have their own LLC (usually single owner). I am a software engineer/developer and game developer that contracts and this doesn't affect me at all. I am very happy for food, cleaning, healthcare workers that will get more protections now. California is the last state doing anything for labor and workers. No need to pile it on labor/workers more when you have only one state out there fighting for lower/middle class to get better employment.

watwatinthewat 7y ago

Why does this prevent that experience from happening? That's a genuine question, as I perhaps/probably don't know enough about the law to get it.

dariusj18 7y ago

I'm not sure what this law would change about being able to work part time with flexible hours. Could you elaborate?

big_chungus 7y ago
Sure. The new bill establishes that an employer must demonstrate the following requirements to hire someone as a contractor (quoting from the bill): * the person is free from the control and direction of the hiring entity in connection with the performance of the work * the person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business * the person is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business I wouldn't have been even close to meeting those. I had some freedom about how the work was performed, so number one is a maybe. I was doing software development for a software development company, so numbers two and three are hard "no"s. As a college student, I didn't care about insurance, or vacation time, or being a full employee. I came to a mutually-beneficial agreement with my employer, and this bill would have prevented that. Also of note: California bans un-paid internships in the "free labor" sense. While this sounds good on the surface, it's not. I held internships in middle and high school that were awesome experience when I had time to burn, and those proved incredibly helpful in landing later paid internships, contract work, college acceptances, and salaried jobs. They were incredibly helpful, and I learned a ton, but I couldn't have done that were I a resident of California. This bill is written to target the gig economy. Many college students I know pay make good money doing gig economy work. And many working-class teens I know who typically work fast food can now use gig economy shifts to fill in when they can't get shifts lined up working fast food or other typical jobs. This bill is awful for almost everyone, because it removes opportunities without providing alternative ones. The state does a great job of taking them away, and a comparatively-horrible job of creating them. Were I a teen-age Californian high-schooler, I'd now be looking at working fast food rather than software development.
- dariusj18 7y ago
  I guess my question is more, "Why can they not just hire you as a part time employee with a flexible schedule?" Not, "Why can they not continue to do what they previously did?"

gregd 7y ago

Was this a work study program or internship through your college? Or did you just take a contracting position at a company to help make ends meet?

big_chungus 7y ago
I held some un-paid internships in middle school and early high school. Learned programming, took software engineering classes, and proved merit w/un-paid internships because hiring a kid is risky. Late HS and college had contracting positions to make ends meet (esp. in college, they took a big chunk out of tuition).

drawkbox 7y ago

AB5 wouldn't affect you under the "Professionals" or "Professional Services" label. [1][2] Software contracting is largely excluded especially freelance. The employer would just have to follow the AB test which is beneficial to contractors: Under the ABC test, a worker is presumed to be an employee unless the company proves that the worker: (A) Is free from the control and direction of the company in performing work, both practically and in the contractual agreement between the parties; and (B) Performs work that is outside the usual course of the company’s business; and (C) Is customarily engaged in an independently established trade, occupation, or business of the same nature as the work performed for the company. If there was ever any issues with (C) which would be the only possible conflict, software/product/creative/engineers can get LLCs to to corp to corp contracting. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201920200AB5 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... [2] https://www.dwt.com/blogs/employment-labor-and-benefits/2019/09/california-ab5-employment-law https://www.dwt.com/blogs/employment-labor-and-benefits/2019...

big_chungus 7y ago
Your assumptions are incorrect; I have already showed why I wouldn't have been able to work in a prior comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21810451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21810451 You're wrong that the "ABC" test is beneficial to contractors. I was doing software development for a software development company, so I wouldn't have passed B. As you have already agreed, I'd have failed C. Finally, I may or may not have met A. Your response to this is, "get an LLC?" You think gig economy workers and high schoolers are capable of this? As you said, that's fine for professionals with those kinds of resources and expertise (or the money for a lawyer). It's also different paperwork for the company. Showing that the best solution is to bypass the law via a loophole also doesn't exactly extol it's virtues.
- drawkbox 7y ago
  "Professional Services" and "Professionals" are exempt which includes engineers/software development. See here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21811997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21811997), engineers are AB5 exempt by law. Also, most freelancing software engineers and developers have their own LLC before they even begin. Asking a software engineer to make an LLC is easy, a bunch of food workers may not have the funds. I know almost zero developers that are contractors or freelancers that don't have their own LLC (usually single owner). I am a software engineer/developer and game developer that contracts and this doesn't affect me at all. I am very happy for food, cleaning, healthcare workers that will get more protections now. California is the last state doing anything for labor and workers. No need to pile it on labor/workers more when you have only one state out there fighting for lower/middle class to get better employment.