5 ms·

> But the bigger point is that the SF government apparently places more weight on minor application mistakes than actual, historical "bad" behavior. This has b

by mstade 7y ago

> But the bigger point is that the SF government apparently places more weight on minor application mistakes than actual, historical "bad" behavior. This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. E.g. when I incorporated my company, I had to send in the same application four times, each time paying an additional fee. Reason was I had minor, pointless really, mistakes in the application, a box I didn't realize had to be ticked, name in the date field and date in the name field, that sort of thing. The data entry people at the government agency could have easily resolved any mistakes with a phone call, but instead I get a letter in the mail a couple of weeks later, saying there's an error but not what the error is. So I have to call and ask, and of course they had no record of what the error was so we had to go over the application on the phone and find them. You'd think they'd tell me about the other errors then, but no, I had to do this four times. It took almost two months to get a simple form approved. I wish that was my only story of wasting time on bureaucracy, but there are plenty more where that came from.

koheripbal 7y ago
As a general rule that is particularily effective when dealing with government is that it is always easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission. Government officials will always choose the easiest path forward - and that is almost always inaction.
reaperducer 7y ago
This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. It doesn't have to be this way. I incorporated my first company in Chicago, and was stunned with how helpful the bureaucrats were. Yes, it was a little complex, especially in the years before "startups" were a thing, and you could do stuff online. But each department I had to work with had people who would sit me down at their desk and explain what they did, why I should care, and how to fill out the forms properly. Maybe the difference is that back then, you were expected to form a company in person, and not do everything online all by yourself and be an expert from day one. A massive thanks to the Illinois Department of Revenue people in the basement of the Thompson Center for all their openness and hand-holding. (In spite of all this, I still moved the company to another state a few years later because of Chicago + Illinois taxes and corruption.)
- mikojan 7y ago
  This has been my experience in dealing with the German collection office even though all had already been moved to web and I never once met a real person. They would always send me nice letters explaining what exactly was wrong. Even did this in cases in which they themselves corrected the error on my behave. On the other hand, dealing with private bureaucracies such as internet providers has always been a major pain. Very unhelpful, not accommodating at all.
  - HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
    This. If all the ISP's died near me, I probably wouldn't shed a tear.
- yebyen 7y ago
  Echo this sentiment from another Midwesterner, ex-pat former New York State resident. I moved to Indiana and have not had the experience of incorporating a business entity, but the experience I had at the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles has been one to make me question whether bureaucracies are really necessarily horrible all of the time. Starting with the experience of moving to the state, to contrast (Upstate) Western New York vs Indiana: My New York insurance provider determined that I was no longer residing in the state, so mailed me a letter of notice that my vehicle insurance was being cancelled. In truth this was the best thing that could have happened, because Indiana insurance is so much cheaper, and I got a deal through my new employer. I was dragging my feet on this because I did not know better about it, and knew it would be painful. So I went to get new insurance, and learned I would need to re-register my car... Visiting the Indiana BMV was like no other auto vehicle registration experience. They were able to take care of me same day, and with no long wait – I waited up to at most 15 minutes to the desk. I was not shuffled from one desk to another, we completed the process in a single desk visit. On the other hand... New York requires you to surrender your plates when you leave the state. If you fail to surrender in a timely fashion, you will be fined punitively. Indiana has no such requirement, they trust you to destroy the plates when you drop a registration for a vehicle. In fact, when I brought plates for my second vehicle to the BMV to surrender them, as the lease was being grounded, not only did they let me know that they actually don't do that at all, I don't need to do that, but also that I was entitled to a credit for the portion of my registration that I had not used (which is fairly substantial, as it is based on the worth of the vehicle and paid annually, like a use tax.) The desk attendant was able to help me fill that form out before I left, and about 45 days later, two checks came in the mail. Being from New York, I found this kind of experience at a bureaucracy to be quite pleasant and seemingly impossible, (and from what I hear asking people who are born and raised here, it has only just become this way recently because of many reforms that have been applied in the past 20 years.)
Spooky23 7y ago
Bureaucracy values consistency over all else. People are held accountable for not following the process, not for customer experience. That means either training people to be experts in whatever they are doing or removing agency from the individuals in the system. Having people with the right training, etc is obviously the better path, but it costs more. End of the day, this is why devops is a thing — traditional IT operations only does what it does, which is a problem when you’re changing and growing.
- bildung 7y ago
  This. The opposite of bureaucracy slavishly following process usually is not good customer experience but corruption. If you open the pandora's box of following process being optional, usually the person with cash in hand wins. This obviously isn't an excuse for dump or inefficient processes, though.
Klinky 7y ago
Regardless of locale or public vs private entity. Trying to get customer service at many big name corps is a Kafkaesque experience. This is generally a fundamental human problem with how groups interact with outsiders to that group.
anigbrowl 7y ago
I made a mistake on my federal tax return some years ago and to my great surprise the IRS turned out to be super-easy to deal with. They told me the amount at issue in the notification letter, a human answered the answered the phone and was able to explain the mistake in a couple of minutes, and they gave me a comfortable window to pay them back. As it only involved a few hundred dollars and it was very much my mistake (a careless math error as opposed to being about interpretation of the rules) it's easy to feel positive about it, but I'd rather talk to the IRS for 15 minutes a week than ever call Comcast again about anything.
the_watcher 7y ago
> This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. I'm reminded of the opening of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which satirized this 40 years ago.
EdwardDiego 7y ago
> This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale In my country (NZ) you can incorporate a country online in an hour. You will need to scan or fax your consent to be a director/shareholder forms though. https://companies-register.companiesoffice.govt.nz/help-centre/starting-a-company/incorporating-a-company/ https://companies-register.companiesoffice.govt.nz/help-cent... Likewise, I can update my income details for family tax credits etc. online with the IRD, our income tax system is very simple (sometimes referred to as pure) so I've never needed to file a tax return. I apply for hunting permits on government land online, and when I change address, I'm required to notify the Police as a registered firearms holder, which I do online, they then email me asking me to document my secure firearms storage, I email them a brief description and some photos, and then based on that, they decide whether or not to send out a Police Officer to confirm. I renew my car's registration online when emailed that it's due. On the odd occasion when I've gotten a speeding fine, I pay that online also. It's really all about complexity of legislation, and administrative desire to minimise red tape. Our government, fortunately, in the more important areas, has made active endeavours to reduce legislative complexity, and red tape. Funnily enough, I hit a lot more bureaucracy dealing with large companies, than our government.
pelliphant 7y ago
> any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. So, not only in america then? The reason why I am asking is because as a EU citizen, my experience is that that bureaucracy in northern europe is very different from bureaucracy in southern europe. Sure, It's not perfect anywhere, but framing this as a problem that can't be fixed, that it is equally bad everywhere is in my view not just wrong but actually harmful to society.

by mstade 7y ago

koheripbal 7y ago

As a general rule that is particularily effective when dealing with government is that it is always easier to ask forgiveness than it is to ask permission. Government officials will always choose the easiest path forward - and that is almost always inaction.

reaperducer 7y ago

This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. It doesn't have to be this way. I incorporated my first company in Chicago, and was stunned with how helpful the bureaucrats were. Yes, it was a little complex, especially in the years before "startups" were a thing, and you could do stuff online. But each department I had to work with had people who would sit me down at their desk and explain what they did, why I should care, and how to fill out the forms properly. Maybe the difference is that back then, you were expected to form a company in person, and not do everything online all by yourself and be an expert from day one. A massive thanks to the Illinois Department of Revenue people in the basement of the Thompson Center for all their openness and hand-holding. (In spite of all this, I still moved the company to another state a few years later because of Chicago + Illinois taxes and corruption.)

mikojan 7y ago
This has been my experience in dealing with the German collection office even though all had already been moved to web and I never once met a real person. They would always send me nice letters explaining what exactly was wrong. Even did this in cases in which they themselves corrected the error on my behave. On the other hand, dealing with private bureaucracies such as internet providers has always been a major pain. Very unhelpful, not accommodating at all.
- HeWhoLurksLate 7y ago
  This. If all the ISP's died near me, I probably wouldn't shed a tear.
yebyen 7y ago
Echo this sentiment from another Midwesterner, ex-pat former New York State resident. I moved to Indiana and have not had the experience of incorporating a business entity, but the experience I had at the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles has been one to make me question whether bureaucracies are really necessarily horrible all of the time. Starting with the experience of moving to the state, to contrast (Upstate) Western New York vs Indiana: My New York insurance provider determined that I was no longer residing in the state, so mailed me a letter of notice that my vehicle insurance was being cancelled. In truth this was the best thing that could have happened, because Indiana insurance is so much cheaper, and I got a deal through my new employer. I was dragging my feet on this because I did not know better about it, and knew it would be painful. So I went to get new insurance, and learned I would need to re-register my car... Visiting the Indiana BMV was like no other auto vehicle registration experience. They were able to take care of me same day, and with no long wait – I waited up to at most 15 minutes to the desk. I was not shuffled from one desk to another, we completed the process in a single desk visit. On the other hand... New York requires you to surrender your plates when you leave the state. If you fail to surrender in a timely fashion, you will be fined punitively. Indiana has no such requirement, they trust you to destroy the plates when you drop a registration for a vehicle. In fact, when I brought plates for my second vehicle to the BMV to surrender them, as the lease was being grounded, not only did they let me know that they actually don't do that at all, I don't need to do that, but also that I was entitled to a credit for the portion of my registration that I had not used (which is fairly substantial, as it is based on the worth of the vehicle and paid annually, like a use tax.) The desk attendant was able to help me fill that form out before I left, and about 45 days later, two checks came in the mail. Being from New York, I found this kind of experience at a bureaucracy to be quite pleasant and seemingly impossible, (and from what I hear asking people who are born and raised here, it has only just become this way recently because of many reforms that have been applied in the past 20 years.)

Spooky23 7y ago

Bureaucracy values consistency over all else. People are held accountable for not following the process, not for customer experience. That means either training people to be experts in whatever they are doing or removing agency from the individuals in the system. Having people with the right training, etc is obviously the better path, but it costs more. End of the day, this is why devops is a thing — traditional IT operations only does what it does, which is a problem when you’re changing and growing.

bildung 7y ago
This. The opposite of bureaucracy slavishly following process usually is not good customer experience but corruption. If you open the pandora's box of following process being optional, usually the person with cash in hand wins. This obviously isn't an excuse for dump or inefficient processes, though.

Klinky 7y ago

Regardless of locale or public vs private entity. Trying to get customer service at many big name corps is a Kafkaesque experience. This is generally a fundamental human problem with how groups interact with outsiders to that group.

anigbrowl 7y ago

I made a mistake on my federal tax return some years ago and to my great surprise the IRS turned out to be super-easy to deal with. They told me the amount at issue in the notification letter, a human answered the answered the phone and was able to explain the mistake in a couple of minutes, and they gave me a comfortable window to pay them back. As it only involved a few hundred dollars and it was very much my mistake (a careless math error as opposed to being about interpretation of the rules) it's easy to feel positive about it, but I'd rather talk to the IRS for 15 minutes a week than ever call Comcast again about anything.

the_watcher 7y ago

> This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. I'm reminded of the opening of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which satirized this 40 years ago.

EdwardDiego 7y ago

> This has been my experience with pretty much any bureaucracy, regardless of locale In my country (NZ) you can incorporate a country online in an hour. You will need to scan or fax your consent to be a director/shareholder forms though. https://companies-register.companiesoffice.govt.nz/help-centre/starting-a-company/incorporating-a-company/ https://companies-register.companiesoffice.govt.nz/help-cent... Likewise, I can update my income details for family tax credits etc. online with the IRD, our income tax system is very simple (sometimes referred to as pure) so I've never needed to file a tax return. I apply for hunting permits on government land online, and when I change address, I'm required to notify the Police as a registered firearms holder, which I do online, they then email me asking me to document my secure firearms storage, I email them a brief description and some photos, and then based on that, they decide whether or not to send out a Police Officer to confirm. I renew my car's registration online when emailed that it's due. On the odd occasion when I've gotten a speeding fine, I pay that online also. It's really all about complexity of legislation, and administrative desire to minimise red tape. Our government, fortunately, in the more important areas, has made active endeavours to reduce legislative complexity, and red tape. Funnily enough, I hit a lot more bureaucracy dealing with large companies, than our government.

pelliphant 7y ago

> any bureaucracy, regardless of locale. So, not only in america then? The reason why I am asking is because as a EU citizen, my experience is that that bureaucracy in northern europe is very different from bureaucracy in southern europe. Sure, It's not perfect anywhere, but framing this as a problem that can't be fixed, that it is equally bad everywhere is in my view not just wrong but actually harmful to society.