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I'd even go further and say it's irresponsible these days to post things like this. If nothing else, because we know the Earth cannot support many more people.

I'd even go further and say it's irresponsible these days to post things like this. If nothing else, because we know the Earth cannot support many more people. Or at least it's looking that way. I think as a society we need to get away from sappy Hallmark channel stuff like this and celebrate the individual. We should not be made to feel like having kids is some transcendental thing. Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age. Parenthood is just a thing to do, nothing more. There's no need to make people believe they want to have kids when it will more likely decrease their happiness, and definitely increase co2.

tormeh 7y ago
> Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age Not true. It depends on the support network around the parents. Government support, kindergarten opening hours, grandparents, etc. I would conclude that spending time with your kids is great in moderation, but achieving moderation is nigh-impossible without (a lot of) help.
ElCapitanMarkla 7y ago
What a load of shit and a miserable view to have. Having kids is the best thing I’ve ever done and the happiest I’ve ever been.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  I think this is the exact point they’re trying to make.
- austhrow743 7y ago
  You're an ecological catastrophe though. We should be shaming people away from your choices not pushing people towards them.
  - chillwaves 7y ago
    The problem is consumption, not population.
    - austhrow743 7y ago
      Population is a huge part of that equation and it's not talked about. There are people going around shitting out kids left right and centre and I'm treated like the antichrist for wanting some bottled water.
      - daxfohl 7y ago
        And the consumption required to sustain families itself is a huge part of the consumption aspect. I feel like my carbon footprint is literally 30x what it was before kids, and that's not even including the kids' carbon footprints.
      - dvko 7y ago
        That is probably mostly because the population argument is usually used by people in rich countries in order not to have to change anything, despite the fact that on average, a 10-person family in rural Africa emits less CO2 than a single individual in the US. I agree there is probably no good reason for anyone to have more than 4 kids (at most, probably just 2 to go for a manageable population decline) but lifestyle is simply a more important aspect of the equation.
        kristofferR 7y ago
        You can presume that your kid will have roughly the same lifestyle, and emissions, as you over a lifetime - so having a kid is a decision of doubling your emissions.
        austhrow743 7y ago
        It doesn't end there. Kid will probably have kids that have the same lifestyle as well. Who will also probably have kids, etc.
- kelnos 7y ago
  That's great for you, but the entire point of this subthread is that everyone is different, and what works for some people doesn't work for others.
Jxjcinbh 7y ago
That's a bit over the top, but I agree there's a bit too much social pressure toward parenthood. And it's a bit presumptuous to make parenthood sound like rainbows if it may actually make a lot of people miserable.
kelnos 7y ago
> Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age. Funny, another poster somewhere here suggested that studies show people with young children are less happy, but after about 5 years old or so, happiness is roughly the same, and after the parents turn 60, happiness and health tends to be higher than for older people without kids. No one seems to be posting sources, so it's hard to verify these claims.
- djsumdog 7y ago
  Yea and once you start digging through the papers, it can get all over the place. I mean, trying to measure happiness is pretty subjective anyway. It's almost always a self-reported score and there are so many other variables it's difficult to lock down solid correlation. I'm not sure if it's possible to tell if kids make people happier or not. There are simply too many other factors. If you want kids have them and if you don't, then don't. Your mind will compensate if you see it as a non-reversible decision. Our minds have a power psychological immune system to help us accept whatever irreversible choices we've made (Dan Gilbert does a good talk on this. I also wrote a post about this about 10 years back: https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/science/time/ https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/science/time/).
gcheong 7y ago
I'd go further and say that the central question shouldn't be whether having kids makes our lives better in some way, but rather is it right to impose a life on a person, as well as the inevitable death they will eventually have to face, with all the potential negative experiences in between just to fulfill a selfish desire. A strong case can be made that the answer is no: https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming...
- patentatt 7y ago
  So life is on balance a negative experience in your worldview? In all sincerity, I hope things turn around for you, because that sounds pretty bad
- daxfohl 7y ago
  A case could also be made for the opposite: is it right to deny a hypothetical not-yet-conceived person the opportunity of life, just so you can have more free time? I think both arguments boil down to nothing.
  - gcheong 7y ago
    No it can't because you cannot deprive a person that doesn't exist of anything. That's an absurdist position. Also the free-time aspect of it for me doesn't even factor because, as I said, the argument isn't whether being a parent or not is better for me but for the person that is going to have to live the live that is imposed upon them.

tormeh 7y ago

> Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age Not true. It depends on the support network around the parents. Government support, kindergarten opening hours, grandparents, etc. I would conclude that spending time with your kids is great in moderation, but achieving moderation is nigh-impossible without (a lot of) help.

ElCapitanMarkla 7y ago

What a load of shit and a miserable view to have. Having kids is the best thing I’ve ever done and the happiest I’ve ever been.

saagarjha 7y ago
I think this is the exact point they’re trying to make.
austhrow743 7y ago
You're an ecological catastrophe though. We should be shaming people away from your choices not pushing people towards them.
- chillwaves 7y ago
  The problem is consumption, not population.
  - austhrow743 7y ago
    Population is a huge part of that equation and it's not talked about. There are people going around shitting out kids left right and centre and I'm treated like the antichrist for wanting some bottled water.
    - daxfohl 7y ago
      And the consumption required to sustain families itself is a huge part of the consumption aspect. I feel like my carbon footprint is literally 30x what it was before kids, and that's not even including the kids' carbon footprints.
    - dvko 7y ago
      That is probably mostly because the population argument is usually used by people in rich countries in order not to have to change anything, despite the fact that on average, a 10-person family in rural Africa emits less CO2 than a single individual in the US. I agree there is probably no good reason for anyone to have more than 4 kids (at most, probably just 2 to go for a manageable population decline) but lifestyle is simply a more important aspect of the equation.
      - kristofferR 7y ago
        You can presume that your kid will have roughly the same lifestyle, and emissions, as you over a lifetime - so having a kid is a decision of doubling your emissions.
        austhrow743 7y ago
        It doesn't end there. Kid will probably have kids that have the same lifestyle as well. Who will also probably have kids, etc.
kelnos 7y ago
That's great for you, but the entire point of this subthread is that everyone is different, and what works for some people doesn't work for others.

Jxjcinbh 7y ago

That's a bit over the top, but I agree there's a bit too much social pressure toward parenthood. And it's a bit presumptuous to make parenthood sound like rainbows if it may actually make a lot of people miserable.

kelnos 7y ago

> Studies consistently show childless people are happiest irrespective of age. Funny, another poster somewhere here suggested that studies show people with young children are less happy, but after about 5 years old or so, happiness is roughly the same, and after the parents turn 60, happiness and health tends to be higher than for older people without kids. No one seems to be posting sources, so it's hard to verify these claims.

djsumdog 7y ago
Yea and once you start digging through the papers, it can get all over the place. I mean, trying to measure happiness is pretty subjective anyway. It's almost always a self-reported score and there are so many other variables it's difficult to lock down solid correlation. I'm not sure if it's possible to tell if kids make people happier or not. There are simply too many other factors. If you want kids have them and if you don't, then don't. Your mind will compensate if you see it as a non-reversible decision. Our minds have a power psychological immune system to help us accept whatever irreversible choices we've made (Dan Gilbert does a good talk on this. I also wrote a post about this about 10 years back: https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/science/time/ https://battlepenguin.com/philosophy/science/time/).

gcheong 7y ago

I'd go further and say that the central question shouldn't be whether having kids makes our lives better in some way, but rather is it right to impose a life on a person, as well as the inevitable death they will eventually have to face, with all the potential negative experiences in between just to fulfill a selfish desire. A strong case can be made that the answer is no: https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming...

patentatt 7y ago
So life is on balance a negative experience in your worldview? In all sincerity, I hope things turn around for you, because that sounds pretty bad
daxfohl 7y ago
A case could also be made for the opposite: is it right to deny a hypothetical not-yet-conceived person the opportunity of life, just so you can have more free time? I think both arguments boil down to nothing.
- gcheong 7y ago
  No it can't because you cannot deprive a person that doesn't exist of anything. That's an absurdist position. Also the free-time aspect of it for me doesn't even factor because, as I said, the argument isn't whether being a parent or not is better for me but for the person that is going to have to live the live that is imposed upon them.