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Yeah I've never understood how people take such one-sided positions on this issue. And it becomes such an emotionally-charged subject for both sides.

etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
It is kind of disturbing to think that your personality and many other traits make you different from other people, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's quite disturbing to me.
- JacksonGariety 7y ago
  Hopefully we are able to use our willpower to bring about personality change over the course of our life.
  - blfr 7y ago
    Your genes are at work 24/7/365. How much willpower do you have?
    - rofo1 7y ago
      I have a lot. Whats your point? Are you saying there's no willpower at all or what? There are people with unusual levels of willpower. I am one of them and I know others. It is what it is.
  - gherkinnn 7y ago
    Implying our willpower is separate from your genes. Maybe the will to change yourself is encoded in your DNA.
    - JacksonGariety 7y ago
      True. But DNA is also to some degree shaped by the choices we make in life, no?
      - gherkinnn 7y ago
        That’s a question for people who know about epigenetics. But it seems so. Not necessarily our choices alone, but the environment as a whole.
        rofo1 7y ago
        You are responsible for the choices you make. You can learn new information, and you can adjust your behavior or habits based on that. The new things you learn wouldn't have been inside your DNA/genes.
        gherkinnn 7y ago
        I don’t wholly agree with the first point. I’m not much of a free will guy. Regarding learning new information, surely the type of info you’re susceptible to, and how to act upon these, isn’t all of your choosing.
- Tade0 7y ago
  I cope by having an unfounded sense of superiority.
- dkersten 7y ago
  Sure, its kind of disturbing, but that's just life. There's a lot of things that you can't do anything about. I didn't grow up to a rich family and that prevented me from doing a lot of things rich people got to do, for example. I agree that it can be disturbing that traits that you have no control over make you different from others, but its normal and just part of life. Certainly nothing to lose sleep over.
- randomidiot666 7y ago
  Yes ideally you would be some kind of indistinguishable Borg creature.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  I find that notion somewhere between comforting and irrelevant. The difficulty lies in not succumbing to fatalistic complacency. Accepting that one simply is of a heavy physique and not needlessly starving oneself sounds healthy to me. There are plenty of activities for which a heavy frame is desirable. On the other hand, giving up in the face of ones perceived insurmountable genetic makeup serves nothing.
- simonh 7y ago
  I believe it is possible for some people to change some aspects of their personality, and I have managed to do so. It’s hard to assess something like that objectively, but I’ve hit positive feedback from family members that I have changed over time. I used to get very frustrated and obstructive or confrontational about things, but with effort and self reflection Ive mostly tamed those tendencies. I also remember as a child noticing how adults behaved, and particularly how they treated children, or even other adults, and made a conscious effort to develop the positive behaviours I admired and avoid ones I saw as negative. This has been particularly important in bringing up my own children. Of course the capacity to change may well be something that varies from person to person, I’m sure it does, but I also believe we all have every human capacity to some extent.
insickness 7y ago
> it becomes such an emotionally-charged subject for both sides. Yeah but it's not like one side is claiming it's 100% nature and the other is claiming it's 100% nurture. One side is claiming it's 100% nurture and the other side is claiming it's some mix. The side claiming it's 100% nurture is 100% wrong. But somehow it is verboten to state this publicly or you are shamed.
- shadowgovt 7y ago
  It's not the claim that natural differences exist, it's the claim they're relevant that'll get a person laughed out of the discussion.
  - nicky0 7y ago
    Irrelevant to the individual, but relevant when talking about groups. For example, upon observing that more women than men tend to take up nursing. Do we conclude that there is a gender bias in healthcare recruitment and a distorted soceital expetation of gender roles, or can it be explained as a consequence of the aggregate personality bias between the sexes resulting in more women choosing that career. The personality science comes in to play when trying to answer that question.
    - shadowgovt 7y ago
      Usually, the correct answer is "insufficient data." The systems are circular and self-reinforcing; what does maternity leave look like in the nursing profession, for example?
      - nicky0 7y ago
        All good points. I wasn't actually trying to start a debate about the nursing profession, of course. Just an example of where average personality differences may partially explain observed outcomes.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    So they're all irrelevant? That's effectively the same as saying they don't exist in the context of this discussion about their effects. Why do you think nature is completely irrelevant?

etaioinshrdlu 7y ago

It is kind of disturbing to think that your personality and many other traits make you different from other people, and there's nothing you can do about it. It's quite disturbing to me.

JacksonGariety 7y ago
Hopefully we are able to use our willpower to bring about personality change over the course of our life.
- blfr 7y ago
  Your genes are at work 24/7/365. How much willpower do you have?
  - rofo1 7y ago
    I have a lot. Whats your point? Are you saying there's no willpower at all or what? There are people with unusual levels of willpower. I am one of them and I know others. It is what it is.
- gherkinnn 7y ago
  Implying our willpower is separate from your genes. Maybe the will to change yourself is encoded in your DNA.
  - JacksonGariety 7y ago
    True. But DNA is also to some degree shaped by the choices we make in life, no?
    - gherkinnn 7y ago
      That’s a question for people who know about epigenetics. But it seems so. Not necessarily our choices alone, but the environment as a whole.
      - rofo1 7y ago
        You are responsible for the choices you make. You can learn new information, and you can adjust your behavior or habits based on that. The new things you learn wouldn't have been inside your DNA/genes.
        gherkinnn 7y ago
        I don’t wholly agree with the first point. I’m not much of a free will guy. Regarding learning new information, surely the type of info you’re susceptible to, and how to act upon these, isn’t all of your choosing.
Tade0 7y ago
I cope by having an unfounded sense of superiority.
dkersten 7y ago
Sure, its kind of disturbing, but that's just life. There's a lot of things that you can't do anything about. I didn't grow up to a rich family and that prevented me from doing a lot of things rich people got to do, for example. I agree that it can be disturbing that traits that you have no control over make you different from others, but its normal and just part of life. Certainly nothing to lose sleep over.
randomidiot666 7y ago
Yes ideally you would be some kind of indistinguishable Borg creature.
gherkinnn 7y ago
I find that notion somewhere between comforting and irrelevant. The difficulty lies in not succumbing to fatalistic complacency. Accepting that one simply is of a heavy physique and not needlessly starving oneself sounds healthy to me. There are plenty of activities for which a heavy frame is desirable. On the other hand, giving up in the face of ones perceived insurmountable genetic makeup serves nothing.
simonh 7y ago
I believe it is possible for some people to change some aspects of their personality, and I have managed to do so. It’s hard to assess something like that objectively, but I’ve hit positive feedback from family members that I have changed over time. I used to get very frustrated and obstructive or confrontational about things, but with effort and self reflection Ive mostly tamed those tendencies. I also remember as a child noticing how adults behaved, and particularly how they treated children, or even other adults, and made a conscious effort to develop the positive behaviours I admired and avoid ones I saw as negative. This has been particularly important in bringing up my own children. Of course the capacity to change may well be something that varies from person to person, I’m sure it does, but I also believe we all have every human capacity to some extent.

insickness 7y ago

> it becomes such an emotionally-charged subject for both sides. Yeah but it's not like one side is claiming it's 100% nature and the other is claiming it's 100% nurture. One side is claiming it's 100% nurture and the other side is claiming it's some mix. The side claiming it's 100% nurture is 100% wrong. But somehow it is verboten to state this publicly or you are shamed.

shadowgovt 7y ago
It's not the claim that natural differences exist, it's the claim they're relevant that'll get a person laughed out of the discussion.
- nicky0 7y ago
  Irrelevant to the individual, but relevant when talking about groups. For example, upon observing that more women than men tend to take up nursing. Do we conclude that there is a gender bias in healthcare recruitment and a distorted soceital expetation of gender roles, or can it be explained as a consequence of the aggregate personality bias between the sexes resulting in more women choosing that career. The personality science comes in to play when trying to answer that question.
  - shadowgovt 7y ago
    Usually, the correct answer is "insufficient data." The systems are circular and self-reinforcing; what does maternity leave look like in the nursing profession, for example?
    - nicky0 7y ago
      All good points. I wasn't actually trying to start a debate about the nursing profession, of course. Just an example of where average personality differences may partially explain observed outcomes.
- manigandham 7y ago
  So they're all irrelevant? That's effectively the same as saying they don't exist in the context of this discussion about their effects. Why do you think nature is completely irrelevant?