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> the endless waste of energy that programmers collectively pour into developing useless stuff for their own amusement I don't know about you, but that's prett

> the endless waste of energy that programmers collectively pour into developing useless stuff for their own amusement I don't know about you, but that's pretty close to my definition of life itself. You are a waste. I am a waste. Do what you find fun, whilst causing the least pain to others in the process. These look like fun projects to me.

chobeat 7y ago
Not everybody is an egotist. Your system of values is not the same as everybody else. If you think this way, good for you, but other people care about other humans.
- esotericn 7y ago
  What makes you think that I don't care about other humans? Your original post essentially claims that people shouldn't do things for their amusement. From my perspective, without fun, there's no point in even bothering. Why feed myself and my fellow man if all we do is struggle? I'm not sure that there actually _are_ any more "real" problems to solve in programming, if by "real" you mean things that significantly reduce human suffering. Those problems are political.
  - chobeat 7y ago
    I'm not against finding amusement in programming, I'm against in promoting the idea that it's normal, healthy and preferable to find amusement in useless projects. You can be a virtuoso while developing something that matters to somebody, instead of having yet another z80 emulator.
- caconym_ 7y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting that it's immoral to spend one's time working on projects whose primary goals are personal pleasure and enrichment?
  - chobeat 7y ago
    Are you seriously suggesting that the knowledge and skills that are being taught to you on how to program come without responsabilities attached?
    - esotericn 7y ago
      Quite the opposite - the developers of many platforms, say social networks to take an example, have a lot to answer for in the way their "useful projects" have actually had large negative side effects. I think you're really reaching if you think that someone not spending all of their time on directly productive pursuits that affect the lives of others materially is somehow a problem. I'd honestly be hard pressed to come up with an idea for a technology I could create tomorrow that would have a real positive impact on humanity (as seperate from say, slightly improving some obscure programming tool). Those problems are political.
    - chobeat 7y ago
      I have no problem if you spend some time on pointless stuff, I do it too. I have a problem with the edonistic status quo where to decide a new project the norm is to suggest to do "something you like" instead of "something that is needed". You're pretending that there's a debate and it's 50-50, while the reality is that the perspective is totally skewed towards programmers' amusement.
      - esotericn 7y ago
        I program things that others need all the time. That's my day job, as a contractor or salaried worker. In exchange, I get money which I can give to others in exchange for things I need. You seem to be suggesting that everyone is effectively 'at work' all of the time, and that every activity they do should be chosen based on some sense of virtue. That's a recipe for burnout in my books.
      - chobeat 7y ago
        Ah ok, if you actually do something useful at work, that's different. Most people develop useless software at work. You must be privileged or maybe you work for some non-profit. I hope you get a decent salary because these days it's very hard to work on relevant things and get paid well.
- dang 7y ago
  Yikes. That's way over the line. Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when using this site.

chobeat 7y ago

Not everybody is an egotist. Your system of values is not the same as everybody else. If you think this way, good for you, but other people care about other humans.

esotericn 7y ago
What makes you think that I don't care about other humans? Your original post essentially claims that people shouldn't do things for their amusement. From my perspective, without fun, there's no point in even bothering. Why feed myself and my fellow man if all we do is struggle? I'm not sure that there actually _are_ any more "real" problems to solve in programming, if by "real" you mean things that significantly reduce human suffering. Those problems are political.
- chobeat 7y ago
  I'm not against finding amusement in programming, I'm against in promoting the idea that it's normal, healthy and preferable to find amusement in useless projects. You can be a virtuoso while developing something that matters to somebody, instead of having yet another z80 emulator.
caconym_ 7y ago
Are you seriously suggesting that it's immoral to spend one's time working on projects whose primary goals are personal pleasure and enrichment?
- chobeat 7y ago
  Are you seriously suggesting that the knowledge and skills that are being taught to you on how to program come without responsabilities attached?
  - esotericn 7y ago
    Quite the opposite - the developers of many platforms, say social networks to take an example, have a lot to answer for in the way their "useful projects" have actually had large negative side effects. I think you're really reaching if you think that someone not spending all of their time on directly productive pursuits that affect the lives of others materially is somehow a problem. I'd honestly be hard pressed to come up with an idea for a technology I could create tomorrow that would have a real positive impact on humanity (as seperate from say, slightly improving some obscure programming tool). Those problems are political.
  - chobeat 7y ago
    I have no problem if you spend some time on pointless stuff, I do it too. I have a problem with the edonistic status quo where to decide a new project the norm is to suggest to do "something you like" instead of "something that is needed". You're pretending that there's a debate and it's 50-50, while the reality is that the perspective is totally skewed towards programmers' amusement.
    - esotericn 7y ago
      I program things that others need all the time. That's my day job, as a contractor or salaried worker. In exchange, I get money which I can give to others in exchange for things I need. You seem to be suggesting that everyone is effectively 'at work' all of the time, and that every activity they do should be chosen based on some sense of virtue. That's a recipe for burnout in my books.
    - chobeat 7y ago
      Ah ok, if you actually do something useful at work, that's different. Most people develop useless software at work. You must be privileged or maybe you work for some non-profit. I hope you get a decent salary because these days it's very hard to work on relevant things and get paid well.
dang 7y ago
Yikes. That's way over the line. Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when using this site.