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On the one hand, you're not wrong in that we exacerbate the psychological damage to victims of abuse by our treatment of sexuality, and we do so on many levels.

On the one hand, you're not wrong in that we exacerbate the psychological damage to victims of abuse by our treatment of sexuality, and we do so on many levels. Part of the reason why victims feel so much shame about what they've been through is because we go out of our way to treat it as shameful. But that's not the scary thing here in the least; the scary thing is how absurdly many of these men are immediately and overtly predatory towards someone they evidently clearly perceive as being a target for manipulation. They contacted her unbidden for the sole purpose of getting sexual gratification out of an individual who they knew was at a disadvantage to them. What are the cultural roots driving this behavior? What does it say about the perception of sex we're engendering in these men that they're so driven to express their sexual will on someone they perceive as vulnerable? These could never constitute a healthy sexual interaction, they are compulsively extractive and impersonal. I'd argue the real damage that our society does is foster in people an addictive appetite for exploitation and satisfaction through the expression of power over others. No doubt, for these men these young children don't register in their minds as human beings, but as valued objects they can attempt to have control over. How deeply fucked up are we as a society that hordes of men seek sexual satisfaction through that kind of dynamic? What did we do to them to generate a pathological craving to dominate and feel power? I'd argue that perhaps this is just what a society based around hierarchies does.

adventskalender 7y ago
Women just have to learn to deal with such men. As the current top comment says, she was first cat called at age 6. So women learn early that there are men after them. I don't mean it as victim blaming or shrugging it off, either. It is in a way a sad fact of life. On the other hand, I personally think there is too much emphasis on the downside of being attractive, and not a lot on the upside. Personally, to be honest, I also think about a rich white woman walking through a poor village in a third world country. She'll be swarmed by beggars, but is she really oppressed? As another commentator answered, men typically experience nothing of that. Zero, zilch, nada - no interest by other people at all. I am not convinced that is the better side of the deal. The usual comment will be "talk to women" - I have talked to women who would be bothered if nobody would notice them on the street. So there is that. To point to another example: we learn to lock our doors, don't show our valuables around, and so on. Not because everybody else is a thief, but because a few people are thieves after our valuables. It sucks, but outrage about it doesn't really help against it. Not do draconian laws, it seems. On the internet, there are presumably over 3 billion people, so if you are fishing for predators, you can easily attract some, even if their general prevalence in the population is low. Even a "horde" would be few in relation to the several billion total. Another issue, of course, is how to explain it to young girls. I am really not sure what to tell my daughter yet.
- aalleavitch 7y ago
  > Women just have to learn to deal with such men You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. You realize that it is the disparity itself that creates such incentives to harm each other? The rich woman is an apt comparison, because I think the extreme stratification of society is a large part of what creates this incentive to prey. Women are still today decisively limited in their access to wealth and power unless they appeal to powerful men, which is the attention they want. Most men don't get any attention because they are of relatively little worth compared to the rich and powerful, likewise their sense of the worth of women is warped and judged by the standards of the rich and in their desperation to feel powerful they prey upon women they think meet those standards. It's disgusting on every level for everyone involved except the most powerful men, the ones who sit atop the pyramid. Does this sound just?
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    > You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. The trust in these tightly-knit communities is generally maintained by driving off predatory and criminal folks, and/or by harshly and promptly retaliating against them should anyone be victimized. Unfortunately, this is not something that can work beyond the scale of a fairly small town or perhaps a "gated" neighborhood in a larger city.
    - aalleavitch 7y ago
      I disagree completely, trust is rare in gated communities and police states. The more harshly the law is enforced, the more clear the sign that people do not trust each other to follow it. Trust is most easily maintained by people simply having no need to steal because there is nothing they want more than they want the trust and respect of the people around them. Why would I steal from you if you're no richer than I am and I know you'd help me in my time of need if it came? Society starts to break down when there come to be things that people view as more valuable to them than each other's good will and friendship. That is to say, trust is only possible under conditions of equality.
sjy 7y ago
> How deeply fucked up are we as a society that hordes of men seek sexual satisfaction through that kind of dynamic? What did we do to them to generate a pathological craving to dominate and feel power? Maybe they’re just a small minority of psychopaths that have always existed, and the internet has made it easier to trick them into revealing their true nature and produce objective evidence of it.

adventskalender 7y ago

Women just have to learn to deal with such men. As the current top comment says, she was first cat called at age 6. So women learn early that there are men after them. I don't mean it as victim blaming or shrugging it off, either. It is in a way a sad fact of life. On the other hand, I personally think there is too much emphasis on the downside of being attractive, and not a lot on the upside. Personally, to be honest, I also think about a rich white woman walking through a poor village in a third world country. She'll be swarmed by beggars, but is she really oppressed? As another commentator answered, men typically experience nothing of that. Zero, zilch, nada - no interest by other people at all. I am not convinced that is the better side of the deal. The usual comment will be "talk to women" - I have talked to women who would be bothered if nobody would notice them on the street. So there is that. To point to another example: we learn to lock our doors, don't show our valuables around, and so on. Not because everybody else is a thief, but because a few people are thieves after our valuables. It sucks, but outrage about it doesn't really help against it. Not do draconian laws, it seems. On the internet, there are presumably over 3 billion people, so if you are fishing for predators, you can easily attract some, even if their general prevalence in the population is low. Even a "horde" would be few in relation to the several billion total. Another issue, of course, is how to explain it to young girls. I am really not sure what to tell my daughter yet.

aalleavitch 7y ago
> Women just have to learn to deal with such men You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. You realize that it is the disparity itself that creates such incentives to harm each other? The rich woman is an apt comparison, because I think the extreme stratification of society is a large part of what creates this incentive to prey. Women are still today decisively limited in their access to wealth and power unless they appeal to powerful men, which is the attention they want. Most men don't get any attention because they are of relatively little worth compared to the rich and powerful, likewise their sense of the worth of women is warped and judged by the standards of the rich and in their desperation to feel powerful they prey upon women they think meet those standards. It's disgusting on every level for everyone involved except the most powerful men, the ones who sit atop the pyramid. Does this sound just?
- zozbot234 7y ago
  > You're not even considering the idea it could be different. Many people have lived in communities where they don't lock their doors because they were actually able to trust the people around them. The trust in these tightly-knit communities is generally maintained by driving off predatory and criminal folks, and/or by harshly and promptly retaliating against them should anyone be victimized. Unfortunately, this is not something that can work beyond the scale of a fairly small town or perhaps a "gated" neighborhood in a larger city.
  - aalleavitch 7y ago
    I disagree completely, trust is rare in gated communities and police states. The more harshly the law is enforced, the more clear the sign that people do not trust each other to follow it. Trust is most easily maintained by people simply having no need to steal because there is nothing they want more than they want the trust and respect of the people around them. Why would I steal from you if you're no richer than I am and I know you'd help me in my time of need if it came? Society starts to break down when there come to be things that people view as more valuable to them than each other's good will and friendship. That is to say, trust is only possible under conditions of equality.

sjy 7y ago

> How deeply fucked up are we as a society that hordes of men seek sexual satisfaction through that kind of dynamic? What did we do to them to generate a pathological craving to dominate and feel power? Maybe they’re just a small minority of psychopaths that have always existed, and the internet has made it easier to trick them into revealing their true nature and produce objective evidence of it.