5 ms·

They Know What Boys Want

30 points by jamesbressi 16y ago

jamesbressi 16y ago
A disturbing piece for HN parents about the coming of age for children. Even though you know the Internet and technology has all progressed since we were kids, it is still disturbing nonetheless. The hacking solution to help our youth is unlikely to come from 0's and 1's, but a hacker that could figure out how to address this--with 0's and 1's or otherwise--would be rewarded with more than gold and silver, they would be a hero. It would be too much for a single person to figure out or a team for that matter. We could easily say that the solution is parenting, but I believe in many cases that isn't enough. Our current social dynamic because of the Internet and technology combined is changing everything from bullying to coming of age to social skills and the problems have been coming to a head for years but only recently receiving so much of the spotlight, leaving it anyones guess what the future repercussions could be.
- gabrielroth 16y ago
  The first step toward a 'hacking solution' would be to define the problem clearly. What are you trying to solve?
  - mynameishere 16y ago
    The problem is that everything you do on the internet will haunt you forever, even after your death, and the kids don't realize this.
    - maushu 16y ago
      The problem here is not the internet. I mean, this is the same as if a kid found a gun and shoot their best friend while playing, and this happened way before internet existed.
      - pyre 16y ago
        So the solution is to lock away the computers in the gun cabinet?
        maushu 16y ago
        That doesn't work so well either. :) The solution is teaching the kids, not hide/lock away the problem.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  Knowing things is better than not knowing things. Maybe it's good that I don't want to have children.
- lhnz 16y ago
  I don't consider this a problem. The internet has changed our social dynamic, sure. It's given people anonymity, it's enabled them to be either exceptionally private or to effectively broadcast themselves (and sometimes they lose control over this, if they are not careful: a problem definitely heightened by the internet). It's removed entry barriers to conversation and enabled people to connect to others a lot easier. In my mind this has just meant that the value of (online) communication has decreased. This might have a few effects. I know it makes people feel safer about exploring their sexuality (instead of having to find somebody they trust, they can instead experiment relatively safely with nobody watching them and just cut off the other person if they've had enough.) I guess this makes people act more cloak and dagger about the people they talk to, but that's surely just how life is when you're young and at school? Maybe people will trust each other less now. This isn't bad; it'll just make those real trust-based relationships that you find so much more meaningful. And, of course, pornography can make us a little more sexually violent but assuming we're not raping people is that really such a bad thing... I think as long as it doesn't all become a game and people learn to love each other it'll all be okay.
  - Unseelie 16y ago
    How is the fact that our children (ok, my young siblings) are coming up in a world where bullying happens in a field vastly different from the playground not a problem? I certainly can't pass on my experience of how to deal with cyber bullies, I don't have any(oh, but flamewars I understand), and I suspect that the entire newest generation is going to have to invent those protocols themselves. That's horribly unfortunate. When children kill themselves because of it, that's horrifying.
    - lhnz 16y ago
      Bullying isn't solved on the playground. At least online the perpetrators document their aggression. Not that I believe that will solve anything, thought it might be fun to name-and-shame them. Also, on the playground a bully will enjoy power by oppressing others in full view of their classmates. Authority and fear go hand in hand. Anonymity and the internet might make it easier to bully others but it also removes the pay-off. Somebody that bullies others online is wasting their time. If you do it, it's not a stretch for somebody else to point out that you're a bit of a 'loser'. It's sad if children kill themselves because of this though. I've heard awful stories of people pretending to be a girlfriend/boyfriend, gaining trust and then humiliating the other person. You would have to be a little naive to fall for that but I don't think that's a lesson anybody should ever have to learn. However, I think that's an exception, kids will learn to not trust so easily in the virtual environment and to carefully control their virtual image.
JonnieCache 16y ago
I've never been more thankful for the 2-3kb/s upstream bandwidth of my childhood. No way we were swapping naked photos of each other.
- igrekel 16y ago
  I guess digital cameras or webcams were not that available either. I am sure than having to take the picture, having it developed at the camera store and then scanning gave more time to think twice. Plus had a much less "private" feel.
eggbrain 16y ago
Perhaps I shouldn't be reading HN at work, but that was way more NSFW than I thought it would be.
sagarun 16y ago
Please edit this post and mark it as NSFW.
Mz 16y ago
I never know what to say about stuff like this. My kids are 21 and 23 and have been online for years. They have never had issues with nude photos, bullying, and so on. It does not have to be some huge issue. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. I will note that my kids were homeschooled and the bullying described in the article apparently revolved around this girl's real life social circle from school -- someone she went on an actual date with who spread rumors as a form of vengeance when she didn't put out. On homeschooling lists, there is fairly often discussion about how schools have a "lord of the flies" social dynamic. From my perspective, the incident in question is rooted in that issue, not in the internet per se. I will also note that the photos in the article, which are described as re-creations of actual photos found online, all show what look to me like very upscale bedrooms that are a cluttered disaster. The settings suggest to me a home where the parents value material things overly much and try to "dote" on their kids by showering them with money and things in place of time and attention. I never had the kind of matching decor and such shown in the photos. But I did grow up with a garden out back, home-cooked meals, and parents helping me with my homework. And my bedroom never looked like the cluttered disaster depicted consistently throughout the photos. My room got cleaned and picked up. My sons and I laugh at the idea of them being able to get away with some of the stunts we hear about or get into trouble without me knowing. First of all, I was there so much that I would have known what they were up to -- they couldn't have disappeared for hours on end without an explanation and no one noticing. And second of all, I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I think that's an important detail.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- pyre 16y ago
  > I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I'm curious about this statement. Does that mean that when your child become a teen you placed no restrictions on them, and let them have a free reign?
  - Mz 16y ago
    A) I anticipated problems and taught them "wisdom" before the issue came up so they wouldn't be stumbling around doing stupid, destructive stuff. B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom. My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)
calebhicks 16y ago
I'm 24, and my wife is pregnant with our first. Reading this article blew my mind. I grew up with AIM, ICQ, MSN Chat, whatever. I had a cameraphone when I was 17. I didn't see any of this, though. I'm not sure whether I'm more scared to have a girl that has to live in a world like this, or to have a boy who may be like the guys in that story. I hate both outcomes. I know many will argue that pornography isn't a big deal, or that the internet hasn't changed much. But as a parent who doesn't want to raise a daughter in that kind of environment, or a son who encourages it, what can I do? What would you do? Is homeschooling the answer? I don't think so. I am very interested in seeing my kids develop socially in ways that they just can't do at home. Living in a small town? I think that's worse, because there's nothing else to do besides sex, get drunk, and do drugs. Shutting off the internet in the home? Seems unrealistic, but it is necessary? I know, what I'm saying probably makes me look insane to many of you. But for those who are dealing with this with their kids now, what are you seeing? What should a future-parent strive to do?
corin_ 16y ago
It seems like NYMag knows what men want too, was there any need for them to have a picture of a model pretending to be youger than she really is on each page? Was there going to be anyone reading the content thinking "so you've described this pose, but without seeing the 14 year old in question I can't really judge how bad it was"? Or... was it just a nice excuse to give readers the snapshots they so badly desire.
protomyth 16y ago
The whole environment of high school has been broken for many years. We are seeing technology collide with societies gradual raising of the age of adulthood combined with a school system designed to create factory workers for Ford. I'm not that old, when I was in high school ND allowed people to get a driver's license at 14. Now we have calls to raise the age to 16 or even 18. I have heard the argument "Well, 14 isn't as mature as it used to be". That is crap, and I can see the day when 21 isn't even old enough to be out on your own. It isn't the technology, bullying, or sexting that is the core problem. It is the environment when society is trying very hard to repress biology and thousand of years of development. It isn't working and is causing serious problems.
ErrantX 16y ago
I realise the horror that some might get from reading this - but I don't entirely understand it. What I see reported there appear to be smart teen girls with much more worldly knowledge/thinking than you'd imagine. These are not girls doing silly dangerous things online, they are girls lighting a few matches and dropping them before being burned. We all did it, maybe not on the internet (and, yes, that introduces a new element of risk we need to take care of), but we did it. Their analysis of the guys they know is absolutely spot on and very mature. They understand; give credit for that :) The second half of the article is of more concern; and the real problem is simply part of a wider problem in society. It has been exacerbated recently by the internet - but it is not a new issue, and no one has really successfully addressed it yet. Just let the whole mess to get slowly worse. The article also mentions Skins; almost as if it is part of the problem. I have no idea if they show the UK version of Skins in the US (or if it is a remake) but the original is, IMO, one of the better attempts to make these issues of sexuality accessible to teens. A lot of people watch a bit and see sexual largess and drugs, but if you really watch there is an important message there about taking experiments too far :)
dpritchett 16y ago
The printer-friendly link looks almost exactly like a default Readability view: http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/70977/ http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/70977/ I wonder if Arc90 is working with them or if they just took the good idea and reused it?

30 points by jamesbressi 16y ago

A disturbing piece for HN parents about the coming of age for children. Even though you know the Internet and technology has all progressed since we were kids, it is still disturbing nonetheless. The hacking solution to help our youth is unlikely to come from 0's and 1's, but a hacker that could figure out how to address this--with 0's and 1's or otherwise--would be rewarded with more than gold and silver, they would be a hero. It would be too much for a single person to figure out or a team for that matter. We could easily say that the solution is parenting, but I believe in many cases that isn't enough. Our current social dynamic because of the Internet and technology combined is changing everything from bullying to coming of age to social skills and the problems have been coming to a head for years but only recently receiving so much of the spotlight, leaving it anyones guess what the future repercussions could be.

gabrielroth 16y ago
The first step toward a 'hacking solution' would be to define the problem clearly. What are you trying to solve?
- mynameishere 16y ago
  The problem is that everything you do on the internet will haunt you forever, even after your death, and the kids don't realize this.
  - maushu 16y ago
    The problem here is not the internet. I mean, this is the same as if a kid found a gun and shoot their best friend while playing, and this happened way before internet existed.
    - pyre 16y ago
      So the solution is to lock away the computers in the gun cabinet?
      - maushu 16y ago
        That doesn't work so well either. :) The solution is teaching the kids, not hide/lock away the problem.
steveklabnik 16y ago
Knowing things is better than not knowing things. Maybe it's good that I don't want to have children.
lhnz 16y ago
I don't consider this a problem. The internet has changed our social dynamic, sure. It's given people anonymity, it's enabled them to be either exceptionally private or to effectively broadcast themselves (and sometimes they lose control over this, if they are not careful: a problem definitely heightened by the internet). It's removed entry barriers to conversation and enabled people to connect to others a lot easier. In my mind this has just meant that the value of (online) communication has decreased. This might have a few effects. I know it makes people feel safer about exploring their sexuality (instead of having to find somebody they trust, they can instead experiment relatively safely with nobody watching them and just cut off the other person if they've had enough.) I guess this makes people act more cloak and dagger about the people they talk to, but that's surely just how life is when you're young and at school? Maybe people will trust each other less now. This isn't bad; it'll just make those real trust-based relationships that you find so much more meaningful. And, of course, pornography can make us a little more sexually violent but assuming we're not raping people is that really such a bad thing... I think as long as it doesn't all become a game and people learn to love each other it'll all be okay.
- Unseelie 16y ago
  How is the fact that our children (ok, my young siblings) are coming up in a world where bullying happens in a field vastly different from the playground not a problem? I certainly can't pass on my experience of how to deal with cyber bullies, I don't have any(oh, but flamewars I understand), and I suspect that the entire newest generation is going to have to invent those protocols themselves. That's horribly unfortunate. When children kill themselves because of it, that's horrifying.
  - lhnz 16y ago
    Bullying isn't solved on the playground. At least online the perpetrators document their aggression. Not that I believe that will solve anything, thought it might be fun to name-and-shame them. Also, on the playground a bully will enjoy power by oppressing others in full view of their classmates. Authority and fear go hand in hand. Anonymity and the internet might make it easier to bully others but it also removes the pay-off. Somebody that bullies others online is wasting their time. If you do it, it's not a stretch for somebody else to point out that you're a bit of a 'loser'. It's sad if children kill themselves because of this though. I've heard awful stories of people pretending to be a girlfriend/boyfriend, gaining trust and then humiliating the other person. You would have to be a little naive to fall for that but I don't think that's a lesson anybody should ever have to learn. However, I think that's an exception, kids will learn to not trust so easily in the virtual environment and to carefully control their virtual image.

JonnieCache 16y ago

I've never been more thankful for the 2-3kb/s upstream bandwidth of my childhood. No way we were swapping naked photos of each other.

igrekel 16y ago
I guess digital cameras or webcams were not that available either. I am sure than having to take the picture, having it developed at the camera store and then scanning gave more time to think twice. Plus had a much less "private" feel.

eggbrain 16y ago

Perhaps I shouldn't be reading HN at work, but that was way more NSFW than I thought it would be.

sagarun 16y ago

Please edit this post and mark it as NSFW.

Mz 16y ago

I never know what to say about stuff like this. My kids are 21 and 23 and have been online for years. They have never had issues with nude photos, bullying, and so on. It does not have to be some huge issue. It can be, but it doesn't have to be. I will note that my kids were homeschooled and the bullying described in the article apparently revolved around this girl's real life social circle from school -- someone she went on an actual date with who spread rumors as a form of vengeance when she didn't put out. On homeschooling lists, there is fairly often discussion about how schools have a "lord of the flies" social dynamic. From my perspective, the incident in question is rooted in that issue, not in the internet per se. I will also note that the photos in the article, which are described as re-creations of actual photos found online, all show what look to me like very upscale bedrooms that are a cluttered disaster. The settings suggest to me a home where the parents value material things overly much and try to "dote" on their kids by showering them with money and things in place of time and attention. I never had the kind of matching decor and such shown in the photos. But I did grow up with a garden out back, home-cooked meals, and parents helping me with my homework. And my bedroom never looked like the cluttered disaster depicted consistently throughout the photos. My room got cleaned and picked up. My sons and I laugh at the idea of them being able to get away with some of the stunts we hear about or get into trouble without me knowing. First of all, I was there so much that I would have known what they were up to -- they couldn't have disappeared for hours on end without an explanation and no one noticing. And second of all, I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I think that's an important detail.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
pyre 16y ago
> I didn't have rebellious teens because there was nothing to rebel against. I'm curious about this statement. Does that mean that when your child become a teen you placed no restrictions on them, and let them have a free reign?
- Mz 16y ago
  A) I anticipated problems and taught them "wisdom" before the issue came up so they wouldn't be stumbling around doing stupid, destructive stuff. B) I'm not a rejecting, judgmental, controlling, authoritarian kind of parent. So there isn't anything to rebel against. For example, when my oldest would say he wanted to play video games for a living when he grew up, I would say "I don't think that's a realistic career goal. But don't let my lack of vision stop you. Feel free to prove me wrong." So he never felt compelled to go make scads of money as a competitive gamer just so he could throw it in my face. He was free to have his idea of what a career looked like evolve without making it a power struggle with his mom. My kids are very well behaved, ironically because I never required it. On the one hand, I imagine it would take many, many words to adequately explain (and maybe some day I will get back to developing the parenting site I own). On the other hand, I also feel like there really isn't anything to say. Just love and accept your kids. No big. (And work on your own crap. Ninety nine percent of the time, if kids are a-holes, they are just reflecting demons in the parental subconscious. I spent a lifetime hunting down personal demons instead of kicking the crap out of my kids for being reflections of my personal demons.)

calebhicks 16y ago

I'm 24, and my wife is pregnant with our first. Reading this article blew my mind. I grew up with AIM, ICQ, MSN Chat, whatever. I had a cameraphone when I was 17. I didn't see any of this, though. I'm not sure whether I'm more scared to have a girl that has to live in a world like this, or to have a boy who may be like the guys in that story. I hate both outcomes. I know many will argue that pornography isn't a big deal, or that the internet hasn't changed much. But as a parent who doesn't want to raise a daughter in that kind of environment, or a son who encourages it, what can I do? What would you do? Is homeschooling the answer? I don't think so. I am very interested in seeing my kids develop socially in ways that they just can't do at home. Living in a small town? I think that's worse, because there's nothing else to do besides sex, get drunk, and do drugs. Shutting off the internet in the home? Seems unrealistic, but it is necessary? I know, what I'm saying probably makes me look insane to many of you. But for those who are dealing with this with their kids now, what are you seeing? What should a future-parent strive to do?

corin_ 16y ago

It seems like NYMag knows what men want too, was there any need for them to have a picture of a model pretending to be youger than she really is on each page? Was there going to be anyone reading the content thinking "so you've described this pose, but without seeing the 14 year old in question I can't really judge how bad it was"? Or... was it just a nice excuse to give readers the snapshots they so badly desire.

protomyth 16y ago

The whole environment of high school has been broken for many years. We are seeing technology collide with societies gradual raising of the age of adulthood combined with a school system designed to create factory workers for Ford. I'm not that old, when I was in high school ND allowed people to get a driver's license at 14. Now we have calls to raise the age to 16 or even 18. I have heard the argument "Well, 14 isn't as mature as it used to be". That is crap, and I can see the day when 21 isn't even old enough to be out on your own. It isn't the technology, bullying, or sexting that is the core problem. It is the environment when society is trying very hard to repress biology and thousand of years of development. It isn't working and is causing serious problems.

ErrantX 16y ago

I realise the horror that some might get from reading this - but I don't entirely understand it. What I see reported there appear to be smart teen girls with much more worldly knowledge/thinking than you'd imagine. These are not girls doing silly dangerous things online, they are girls lighting a few matches and dropping them before being burned. We all did it, maybe not on the internet (and, yes, that introduces a new element of risk we need to take care of), but we did it. Their analysis of the guys they know is absolutely spot on and very mature. They understand; give credit for that :) The second half of the article is of more concern; and the real problem is simply part of a wider problem in society. It has been exacerbated recently by the internet - but it is not a new issue, and no one has really successfully addressed it yet. Just let the whole mess to get slowly worse. The article also mentions Skins; almost as if it is part of the problem. I have no idea if they show the UK version of Skins in the US (or if it is a remake) but the original is, IMO, one of the better attempts to make these issues of sexuality accessible to teens. A lot of people watch a bit and see sexual largess and drugs, but if you really watch there is an important message there about taking experiments too far :)

dpritchett 16y ago

The printer-friendly link looks almost exactly like a default Readability view: http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/70977/ http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/70977/ I wonder if Arc90 is working with them or if they just took the good idea and reused it?