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Uhh. Just going to chime in here. It is absolutely OK if you don’t experience the emotions he writes about here. You aren’t broken. I write this because I rea

Uhh. Just going to chime in here. It is absolutely OK if you don’t experience the emotions he writes about here. You aren’t broken. I write this because I read and it immediately messaged a few friends who respect Paul as well asking them if I was broken. Everyone experiences parenthood differently. I never had the chemical changes in my brain and often over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. There are other things I’d rather be doing, learning, building. That is OK. Just because the HN generally respects Paul doesn’t mean that if your experience as a parent doesn’t match his something is wrong. You are OK and chances are you are a better parent than you think.

jimktrains2 7y ago
When my 4 year old comes and wakes me up to ask for breakfast, I can't just tell him to go away, even if I only went to bed 2 hours ago because I sometimes have trouble sleeping. When he asks me to play with him it breaks my heart when I say no because I'm working. I work from home, so I need to maintain boundaries otherwise I'd always be playing with him. I feel terrible that I resent him for waking me up early, and really have to work at reminding myself that I don't hold it against him and that I did get up and care for him, even when I didn't want to. It breaks my heart to disappoint him, but I need to work or he doesn't eat. I also try to actually keep working hours so that I have time to spend with him. Honestly, just meeting your childrens basic needs as well as you can is being a good parent. We can't be there all the time to do everything possible. We're human; we don't have the time or attention. As for the chemical change mentioned, the only difference I've ever felt is I get much more sad when something bad happens to a child, but otherwise, I don't think I think I've changed much elsewise. My heart wasn't bursting with joy when either was born, not to say I wasn't happy.
sombremesa 7y ago
I don't have kids but from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you.
- adrianmonk 7y ago
  And the 50 lines of code you hurriedly typed in a flash of inspiration is also likely to not compile. Because it's a project that starts off very rough and requires work to shape it into what it needs to be.
- theli0nheart 7y ago
  I have kids and what I’ve learned and noticed is that kids are, unsurprisingly, just like people, and there are selfish ones, and not so selfish ones. Generalizations don’t really work with people, or kids, because kids are people.
  - mirekrusin 7y ago
    Parphrasing Brian Tracy [0] all people (and kids) are - lazy, greedy, ambitious, selfish, ignorant and vain - this is just a human nature. We're not bad because we feel those - because everybody does - what makes a difference is how we react/what habits we develop around those feelings that counts. [0] Six basic character (...) - Psychology of Achievement - Brian Tracy
- mirekrusin 7y ago
  And you're playing a game of teaching them about what it means - more general what everything in the world means, how to read the world. You will find it frustraiting and interesting, arguably your task is to shift the balance so it's not frustrating for you and your kid, you'll learn a lot about humans, yourself and kids along the way (or not).
- _pmf_ 7y ago
  > from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you Wait until they are 12.
- disco_nap 7y ago
  Kids demand a lot of time but can be remarkably unselfish. My 3 y.o. daughter made my bed this morning and tries to help me if I seem tired. We help each other out, and parenthood opened me up to a way of living that was less self-interested.
scribu 7y ago
Can you explain how being selfish (i.e. wanting to do other things instead of taking care of them) makes you a better parent? It's not at all obvious.
- Jolter 7y ago
  That's not what he wrote.
  - mistermann 7y ago
    Not exactly, but my take was similar, that he seemed to be implying that it doesn't make you a "worse" parent. Specifically: > I never had the chemical changes in my brain and often over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. There are other things I’d rather be doing, learning, building. That is OK. Had he said "That is OK, provided your partner is also ok with it of course." I would have a different interpretation.
- nickreese 7y ago
  It doesn’t make you a better parent. But you shouldn’t feel guilty about your experience just because someone you respect wrote about their experience and it doesn’t mesh with yours. You’ll make the hard decisions to do what is best for your kid but it isn’t always roses or easy as Paul makes it sound. I’m lucky if I have 3-4 experiences a week where I’m 100% in the moment and enjoying it. That is spending between 3-6 hours a day with my kids during the week.
- throwaway_moond 7y ago
  I have a 2 year old. I enjoy playing with and spending time with him, but after some amount of time I get bored, and the time becomes more tedious. If I spend an entire weekend day only spending time with him, I find myself growing resentful and doing things to just pass the time -- like driving him somewhere reasonably far away, just because driving seems more stimulating for me. But if I carve out a couple of hours for myself and my hobbies, then I'm able to be more present and engaged and better enjoy the time I spend with my son, which I think makes for a better overall experience for both of us. I also did not feel a sudden transformation when my son is born. It took about seven months for my wife and I to not feel like we had made a major mistake (note that women are also not necessarily transformed immediately, but that it is even less culturally acceptable for them to admit this.) But somewhere around 18 months that warm, protective feeling that pg described kicked in and I don't have any regrets now (but sometimes it's still boring).
bcrosby95 7y ago
Yeah I didn't have that instant flip. But after about 6-9 months, when they become increasingly interactive I started to enjoy it more. Before then it was more a sense of duty to help this tiny thing survive.
- lukethomas 7y ago
  I experienced similar. My son is 16 months, and it's gotten way more fun.
  - luckydata 7y ago
    The way I explain it to my non-dads male coworkers, 1 to 18 months is mommy time and you’re there to help, but month 19 and forward is all daddy time until they’re 15 and they hate you. You’re literally the coolest person on earth for them. I like being a superhero.
- lallysingh 7y ago
  Yeah. As babies they're not terribly interesting. Around 1 years old they're at about my level.
Zelphyr 7y ago
This is very true because yes, kids can be a lot of fun. They can also be exhausting, frustrating, terrifying, and just plain boring at times. That too is ok. It's kinda how it's supposed to be. I suspect one of the reason Paul Graham views them the way he does is because he has approached them with a genuine sense of curiosity. If you're trying to mould them too much (a mistake I'm sad to say I've made too much) then things are going to be rough for both of you. But if you explore the world with them, placing boundaries only where true danger lies, then things can become really intellectually and emotionally interesting. Also, you know what? Take some time for yourself periodically to recharge! You know what else? Let and encourage your spouse do the same! Also? Take some time together without the kids from time to time. Your kids might complain at the moment but you'll all be better for it in the end.
- AlexCoventry 7y ago
  Probably another factor is wealth. He must be, what, at least a hundred-millionaire at this point? That's going to afford a lot more options for dealing with the dreary parts, and give him a lot more confidence that he'll be able to follow through on those protective urges he describes.
pfortuny 7y ago
Never mistake feeling with wanting. This is such a great mistake. Virtue is exactly what allows you to behave further that your feelings.
axaxs 7y ago
Out of curiosity, how old are you? I was much more selfish and 'go go go' in my 20s. In my mid thirties now and mellowed a lot. I find parenting a joy now, but think I would have hated it 10 years ago.
- OnlineGladiator 7y ago
  I'm in my 30s and much more selfish than I was in my 20s. Everybody is different.
  - axaxs 7y ago
    For sure. I wasn't intending to give life advice, just a personal account for younger folks who regret/are afraid of parenting. It's easy to change without realizing when it happened!
- nickreese 7y ago
  Mid thirties.
Liron 7y ago
I also did not experience the chemical changes part. At the time I was wondering if I would, but nope.
- galangalalgol 7y ago
  I definitely did. First night home she projectile pooped all over me, and my instinct was to laugh and think it was cute. That brought me up short and i realized my brain had been hacked for the purpose of the species' survival. I would still rather vegetate than play with her on many occasions, but something flipped a switch and all kids are way less annoying than they were. A friend of mine who has gotten all his out of the nest says it wears off. My father in law says the same until you hit your first grandchild when something similar kicked in.
AndrewKemendo 7y ago
When I had my first kid in 2009 I was expecting this whole life changing experience, instead it was just...the same, except now there's a baby take care of. Three kids later and I definitely have strong feelings around my kids, but it's not some kind of revelation. They're people just like me, they just have less experience. It's my job (legally and ethically) to make sure they have a reasonably well informed, if biased, framework to examine, test and act in the world.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jey 7y ago
  Your job is also to love them! Emotional neglect has real and serious consequences. For an introduction to this concept, I recommend: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-of-emotionally-immature-parents https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15812553-running-on-empty https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15812553-running-on-empt...
ianbicking 7y ago
This feels terribly sentimental, but of course it's a sentimental topic, so... a poem that I very much appreciate on some of these feelings (http://web.colby.edu/csc-mcnair/rulesnewcar-tcluster/ http://web.colby.edu/csc-mcnair/rulesnewcar-tcluster/): The Rules of the New Car by Wesley McNair After I got married and became the stepfather of two children, just before we had two more, I bought it, the bright blue sorrowful car that slowly turned to scratches and the flat black spots of gum in the seats and stains impossible to remove from the floor mats. “Never again.” I said as our kids, four of them by now, climbed into the new car. “This time, there will be rules.” The first to go was the rule I made for myself about cleaning it once a week, though why, I shouted at the kids in the rearview mirror, should I have to clean it if they would just remember to fold their hands. Three years later, it was the same car I had before, except for the dent my wife put in the grille when, ignoring the regulation about snacks, she reached for a bag of chips on her way home from work and hit a tow truck. Oh, the ache I felt for the broken rules, and the beautiful car that had been lost, and the car that we now had, on soft shocks in the driveway, still unpaid for. Then one day, for no particular reason except that the car was loaded down with wood for the fireplace at my in-laws’ camp and groceries and sheets and clothes for the week, my wife in the passenger seat, the dog lightly panting beside the kids in the back, all innocent anticipation, waiting for me to join them, I opened the door to my life.
acjohnson55 7y ago
This is true. Having kids changed my life and outlook, but it didn't necessarily subtract from my personal ambitions. I've experienced it more pragmatically than as an epiphany. Some epiphany, for sure, but it didn't change my personality.
thdrdt 7y ago
What almost always bothers me about Paul's essays is that he includes 'facts' like they apply to everyone. This is why I don't like most of his eesays. For example: "..but having kids may make one less ambitious.". It might apply to Paul but I have never been more ambitious since I had kids. In his next sentences he almost makes us feeling guilty for it because "..you're probably going to care more about them than you do about yourself." Ehm, no. Taking more care about your kids has nothing to do with ambitions. At least not for me. You can have great ambitions which include your whole family.
- atdrummond 7y ago
  With the qualifiers (“may”, “probably”) provided I’m not sure I see him as offering any absolutes, at least in your quoted passages.
  - thdrdt 7y ago
    True but he starts out by writing down his own experiences and the he suddenly changes to may and probably if it applies to most people.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Weasel words.
- edoceo 7y ago
  The words "may" and "probably" seem to indicate these statements are not facts, and may probably not apply to everyone.
phamilton 7y ago
I highly recommend watching Mike Birbiglia "The New One". It's on Netflix, which is how I watched it, but I bet it would be pretty awesome to see in person.
e40 7y ago
And let's be honest, having (essentially) unlimited resources makes having kids a lot less stressful. Many of us stress about college costs, and costs in general. And, getting help can be very expensive, unless you have extensive family support.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
My first child was born at 1 AM, on our third night at the hospital that week. All I felt was tired. > over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. Ditto. Part of the deal with parenting is to grow out of the selfishness. It's never completely gone (at least, not for me), but I've grown to a place where I am (hopefully, at least) less selfish than I was. Children grow their parents, too.
motorolnik 7y ago
Hi, Nick, can I ask you about that your 2017/2018 HFT project from another thread?

jimktrains2 7y ago

When my 4 year old comes and wakes me up to ask for breakfast, I can't just tell him to go away, even if I only went to bed 2 hours ago because I sometimes have trouble sleeping. When he asks me to play with him it breaks my heart when I say no because I'm working. I work from home, so I need to maintain boundaries otherwise I'd always be playing with him. I feel terrible that I resent him for waking me up early, and really have to work at reminding myself that I don't hold it against him and that I did get up and care for him, even when I didn't want to. It breaks my heart to disappoint him, but I need to work or he doesn't eat. I also try to actually keep working hours so that I have time to spend with him. Honestly, just meeting your childrens basic needs as well as you can is being a good parent. We can't be there all the time to do everything possible. We're human; we don't have the time or attention. As for the chemical change mentioned, the only difference I've ever felt is I get much more sad when something bad happens to a child, but otherwise, I don't think I think I've changed much elsewise. My heart wasn't bursting with joy when either was born, not to say I wasn't happy.

sombremesa 7y ago

I don't have kids but from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you.

adrianmonk 7y ago
And the 50 lines of code you hurriedly typed in a flash of inspiration is also likely to not compile. Because it's a project that starts off very rough and requires work to shape it into what it needs to be.
theli0nheart 7y ago
I have kids and what I’ve learned and noticed is that kids are, unsurprisingly, just like people, and there are selfish ones, and not so selfish ones. Generalizations don’t really work with people, or kids, because kids are people.
- mirekrusin 7y ago
  Parphrasing Brian Tracy [0] all people (and kids) are - lazy, greedy, ambitious, selfish, ignorant and vain - this is just a human nature. We're not bad because we feel those - because everybody does - what makes a difference is how we react/what habits we develop around those feelings that counts. [0] Six basic character (...) - Psychology of Achievement - Brian Tracy
mirekrusin 7y ago
And you're playing a game of teaching them about what it means - more general what everything in the world means, how to read the world. You will find it frustraiting and interesting, arguably your task is to shift the balance so it's not frustrating for you and your kid, you'll learn a lot about humans, yourself and kids along the way (or not).
_pmf_ 7y ago
> from what I know about small children they're likely to be a thousand times more selfish than you Wait until they are 12.
disco_nap 7y ago
Kids demand a lot of time but can be remarkably unselfish. My 3 y.o. daughter made my bed this morning and tries to help me if I seem tired. We help each other out, and parenthood opened me up to a way of living that was less self-interested.

scribu 7y ago

Can you explain how being selfish (i.e. wanting to do other things instead of taking care of them) makes you a better parent? It's not at all obvious.

Jolter 7y ago
That's not what he wrote.
- mistermann 7y ago
  Not exactly, but my take was similar, that he seemed to be implying that it doesn't make you a "worse" parent. Specifically: > I never had the chemical changes in my brain and often over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. There are other things I’d rather be doing, learning, building. That is OK. Had he said "That is OK, provided your partner is also ok with it of course." I would have a different interpretation.
nickreese 7y ago
It doesn’t make you a better parent. But you shouldn’t feel guilty about your experience just because someone you respect wrote about their experience and it doesn’t mesh with yours. You’ll make the hard decisions to do what is best for your kid but it isn’t always roses or easy as Paul makes it sound. I’m lucky if I have 3-4 experiences a week where I’m 100% in the moment and enjoying it. That is spending between 3-6 hours a day with my kids during the week.
throwaway_moond 7y ago
I have a 2 year old. I enjoy playing with and spending time with him, but after some amount of time I get bored, and the time becomes more tedious. If I spend an entire weekend day only spending time with him, I find myself growing resentful and doing things to just pass the time -- like driving him somewhere reasonably far away, just because driving seems more stimulating for me. But if I carve out a couple of hours for myself and my hobbies, then I'm able to be more present and engaged and better enjoy the time I spend with my son, which I think makes for a better overall experience for both of us. I also did not feel a sudden transformation when my son is born. It took about seven months for my wife and I to not feel like we had made a major mistake (note that women are also not necessarily transformed immediately, but that it is even less culturally acceptable for them to admit this.) But somewhere around 18 months that warm, protective feeling that pg described kicked in and I don't have any regrets now (but sometimes it's still boring).

bcrosby95 7y ago

Yeah I didn't have that instant flip. But after about 6-9 months, when they become increasingly interactive I started to enjoy it more. Before then it was more a sense of duty to help this tiny thing survive.

lukethomas 7y ago
I experienced similar. My son is 16 months, and it's gotten way more fun.
- luckydata 7y ago
  The way I explain it to my non-dads male coworkers, 1 to 18 months is mommy time and you’re there to help, but month 19 and forward is all daddy time until they’re 15 and they hate you. You’re literally the coolest person on earth for them. I like being a superhero.
lallysingh 7y ago
Yeah. As babies they're not terribly interesting. Around 1 years old they're at about my level.

Zelphyr 7y ago

This is very true because yes, kids can be a lot of fun. They can also be exhausting, frustrating, terrifying, and just plain boring at times. That too is ok. It's kinda how it's supposed to be. I suspect one of the reason Paul Graham views them the way he does is because he has approached them with a genuine sense of curiosity. If you're trying to mould them too much (a mistake I'm sad to say I've made too much) then things are going to be rough for both of you. But if you explore the world with them, placing boundaries only where true danger lies, then things can become really intellectually and emotionally interesting. Also, you know what? Take some time for yourself periodically to recharge! You know what else? Let and encourage your spouse do the same! Also? Take some time together without the kids from time to time. Your kids might complain at the moment but you'll all be better for it in the end.

AlexCoventry 7y ago
Probably another factor is wealth. He must be, what, at least a hundred-millionaire at this point? That's going to afford a lot more options for dealing with the dreary parts, and give him a lot more confidence that he'll be able to follow through on those protective urges he describes.

pfortuny 7y ago

Never mistake feeling with wanting. This is such a great mistake. Virtue is exactly what allows you to behave further that your feelings.

axaxs 7y ago

Out of curiosity, how old are you? I was much more selfish and 'go go go' in my 20s. In my mid thirties now and mellowed a lot. I find parenting a joy now, but think I would have hated it 10 years ago.

OnlineGladiator 7y ago
I'm in my 30s and much more selfish than I was in my 20s. Everybody is different.
- axaxs 7y ago
  For sure. I wasn't intending to give life advice, just a personal account for younger folks who regret/are afraid of parenting. It's easy to change without realizing when it happened!
nickreese 7y ago
Mid thirties.

Liron 7y ago

I also did not experience the chemical changes part. At the time I was wondering if I would, but nope.

galangalalgol 7y ago
I definitely did. First night home she projectile pooped all over me, and my instinct was to laugh and think it was cute. That brought me up short and i realized my brain had been hacked for the purpose of the species' survival. I would still rather vegetate than play with her on many occasions, but something flipped a switch and all kids are way less annoying than they were. A friend of mine who has gotten all his out of the nest says it wears off. My father in law says the same until you hit your first grandchild when something similar kicked in.

AndrewKemendo 7y ago

When I had my first kid in 2009 I was expecting this whole life changing experience, instead it was just...the same, except now there's a baby take care of. Three kids later and I definitely have strong feelings around my kids, but it's not some kind of revelation. They're people just like me, they just have less experience. It's my job (legally and ethically) to make sure they have a reasonably well informed, if biased, framework to examine, test and act in the world.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jey 7y ago
Your job is also to love them! Emotional neglect has real and serious consequences. For an introduction to this concept, I recommend: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-of-emotionally-immature-parents https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23129659-adult-children-... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15812553-running-on-empty https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15812553-running-on-empt...

ianbicking 7y ago

This feels terribly sentimental, but of course it's a sentimental topic, so... a poem that I very much appreciate on some of these feelings (http://web.colby.edu/csc-mcnair/rulesnewcar-tcluster/ http://web.colby.edu/csc-mcnair/rulesnewcar-tcluster/): The Rules of the New Car by Wesley McNair After I got married and became the stepfather of two children, just before we had two more, I bought it, the bright blue sorrowful car that slowly turned to scratches and the flat black spots of gum in the seats and stains impossible to remove from the floor mats. “Never again.” I said as our kids, four of them by now, climbed into the new car. “This time, there will be rules.” The first to go was the rule I made for myself about cleaning it once a week, though why, I shouted at the kids in the rearview mirror, should I have to clean it if they would just remember to fold their hands. Three years later, it was the same car I had before, except for the dent my wife put in the grille when, ignoring the regulation about snacks, she reached for a bag of chips on her way home from work and hit a tow truck. Oh, the ache I felt for the broken rules, and the beautiful car that had been lost, and the car that we now had, on soft shocks in the driveway, still unpaid for. Then one day, for no particular reason except that the car was loaded down with wood for the fireplace at my in-laws’ camp and groceries and sheets and clothes for the week, my wife in the passenger seat, the dog lightly panting beside the kids in the back, all innocent anticipation, waiting for me to join them, I opened the door to my life.

acjohnson55 7y ago

This is true. Having kids changed my life and outlook, but it didn't necessarily subtract from my personal ambitions. I've experienced it more pragmatically than as an epiphany. Some epiphany, for sure, but it didn't change my personality.

thdrdt 7y ago

What almost always bothers me about Paul's essays is that he includes 'facts' like they apply to everyone. This is why I don't like most of his eesays. For example: "..but having kids may make one less ambitious.". It might apply to Paul but I have never been more ambitious since I had kids. In his next sentences he almost makes us feeling guilty for it because "..you're probably going to care more about them than you do about yourself." Ehm, no. Taking more care about your kids has nothing to do with ambitions. At least not for me. You can have great ambitions which include your whole family.

atdrummond 7y ago
With the qualifiers (“may”, “probably”) provided I’m not sure I see him as offering any absolutes, at least in your quoted passages.
- thdrdt 7y ago
  True but he starts out by writing down his own experiences and the he suddenly changes to may and probably if it applies to most people.
- watwut 7y ago
  Weasel words.
edoceo 7y ago
The words "may" and "probably" seem to indicate these statements are not facts, and may probably not apply to everyone.

phamilton 7y ago

I highly recommend watching Mike Birbiglia "The New One". It's on Netflix, which is how I watched it, but I bet it would be pretty awesome to see in person.

e40 7y ago

And let's be honest, having (essentially) unlimited resources makes having kids a lot less stressful. Many of us stress about college costs, and costs in general. And, getting help can be very expensive, unless you have extensive family support.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

My first child was born at 1 AM, on our third night at the hospital that week. All I felt was tired. > over the past 3 years have realized just how selfish I am when it comes to taking care of the munchkins. Ditto. Part of the deal with parenting is to grow out of the selfishness. It's never completely gone (at least, not for me), but I've grown to a place where I am (hopefully, at least) less selfish than I was. Children grow their parents, too.

motorolnik 7y ago

Hi, Nick, can I ask you about that your 2017/2018 HFT project from another thread?