5 ms·

How would, "What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers..." sound? To me, it says that trust in our profession is interchangeable with

How would, "What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers..." sound? To me, it says that trust in our profession is interchangeable with that of trained felons. I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card #s, and other personal information. Edit: I hate to sound like a Calvinist here, but you have to ask yourself how much a change in behavior is due to "rehabilitation", and how much of it is purely situational. From what I've seen, they're model employees, until the setback--be it divorce, drugs, financial hardship, stress, etc. Then there is the backslide. And you don't have to take my word for it. Recidivism rates are very very high.

sokoloff 7y ago
The specific felony matters a lot to me. Someone busted with a gram of marijuana or a bong in Arizona can pick up a felony conviction for it. Someone with a previous embezzlement charge is a different story (even if the embezzlement conviction was only a misdemeanor).
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  I'd also disregard a pot bust. This Aguirre guy in the article was at least an accessory to a shooting--even though they charged him with much more than that... not the kind of person I want near confidential information.
  - sokoloff 7y ago
    I did different/lesser dumb stuff when I was 17. If my friends were into "street life" instead of cars, computer games, and D&D, I can see a scenario where I'd be along for the ride in one of their/our exploits. Peer pressure and "going along without thinking through the consequences" in a group of your friends at that age is a real thing and I don't think is strongly predictive of adult trustworthiness. (I generally tend towards the "law and order" side of things.)
danso 7y ago
The article says the felon coders who were hired are in the test engineering department, due to restrictions clients have when it comes to data access by people with criminal records. And those with criminal records are allowed to practice law. Quite a few inspirational stories of this actually: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood
dragonwriter 7y ago
> How would, "What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers..." sound? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/business/are-felons-fit-to-be-lawyers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/business/are-felons-fit-t...
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  That is a nice anecdote. Is it good policy?
GordonS 7y ago
> I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card #s, and other personal information Isn't a felon's debt to society meant to be repaid after their sentence ends? I'd much rather that people leave prison ready to be useful and/or productive members of society.
- jstewartmobile 7y ago
  Trust has to be earned--even for non-felons. After the debt is paid, I think that puts the balance at zero. How many tech firms hire at zero--other than in situations like this limited-time virtue signaling / PR fodder opportunity?
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    > Trust has to be earned--even for non-felons Yet we hire kids straight out of college or a bootcamp and give them access to production data.
    - jstewartmobile 7y ago
      Straight out of college, not straight out of prison for being an accessory to somebody getting loaded with buckshot.
      - bdcravens 7y ago
        That sounds nice and dramatic, but I don't see how a terrible choice someone made 10 years ago says anything about how trustworthy they are with regard to financial or personal information. It seems you're leaving out the assumption: once a criminal, always a criminal.
        ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        Well, this graph does shed some light on that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#/media/File:Recidivism_1994.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#/media/File:Recidiv... For white collar crime, which seems most relevant to the topic at hand, the recidivism rate is slightly less at about 48%. https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=145143 https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1451...
bdcravens 7y ago
This implies that a felon has a criminal mindset and is just looking to commit more crime. I personally feel the world is safer with felons having access to code and PII (or working in financial roles) and a good salary than it is when they are released and are back in the cycle of desperation -> crime -> incarceration -> release.
newsreader 7y ago
Yes, recidivism rates are very high indeed. And I am proof of it, having done time in two countries (US and Mexico) and two states (Arizona and California) for a total of 19 years of my life. But just as I am a statistical number of those that return to prison, I am a statistical number for those that get out and stay out. I have been working as a software developer for the last 20 years and make a comfortable living from the career I chose. But my story would have been very different if I had never been given a chance to work and prove my worth. Thankfully, someone was willing to take a chance by hiring me. I’ve been free for the last 22 years, married for the last 20, father of a beautiful daughter, and grandfather to an adorable girl.
fredsanford 7y ago
>> What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawy... Or Senators, congresscritters or Presidents? Seen the TV news lately?
feistypharit 7y ago
Most crime is situational. You would be a criminal too in the right situation. Your thought process is a huge contributor of recidivism. When someone cannot escape their situation, they continue doing what they need to to survive.

sokoloff 7y ago

The specific felony matters a lot to me. Someone busted with a gram of marijuana or a bong in Arizona can pick up a felony conviction for it. Someone with a previous embezzlement charge is a different story (even if the embezzlement conviction was only a misdemeanor).

jstewartmobile 7y ago
I'd also disregard a pot bust. This Aguirre guy in the article was at least an accessory to a shooting--even though they charged him with much more than that... not the kind of person I want near confidential information.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  I did different/lesser dumb stuff when I was 17. If my friends were into "street life" instead of cars, computer games, and D&D, I can see a scenario where I'd be along for the ride in one of their/our exploits. Peer pressure and "going along without thinking through the consequences" in a group of your friends at that age is a real thing and I don't think is strongly predictive of adult trustworthiness. (I generally tend towards the "law and order" side of things.)

danso 7y ago

The article says the felon coders who were hired are in the test engineering department, due to restrictions clients have when it comes to data access by people with criminal records. And those with criminal records are allowed to practice law. Quite a few inspirational stories of this actually: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shon_Hopwood

dragonwriter 7y ago

> How would, "What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawyers / bankers..." sound? https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/business/are-felons-fit-to-be-lawyers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/19/business/are-felons-fit-t...

jstewartmobile 7y ago
That is a nice anecdote. Is it good policy?

GordonS 7y ago

> I'd rather not have technically proficient felons near passwords, credit card #s, and other personal information Isn't a felon's debt to society meant to be repaid after their sentence ends? I'd much rather that people leave prison ready to be useful and/or productive members of society.

jstewartmobile 7y ago
Trust has to be earned--even for non-felons. After the debt is paid, I think that puts the balance at zero. How many tech firms hire at zero--other than in situations like this limited-time virtue signaling / PR fodder opportunity?
- bdcravens 7y ago
  > Trust has to be earned--even for non-felons Yet we hire kids straight out of college or a bootcamp and give them access to production data.
  - jstewartmobile 7y ago
    Straight out of college, not straight out of prison for being an accessory to somebody getting loaded with buckshot.
    - bdcravens 7y ago
      That sounds nice and dramatic, but I don't see how a terrible choice someone made 10 years ago says anything about how trustworthy they are with regard to financial or personal information. It seems you're leaving out the assumption: once a criminal, always a criminal.
      - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        Well, this graph does shed some light on that... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#/media/File:Recidivism_1994.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#/media/File:Recidiv... For white collar crime, which seems most relevant to the topic at hand, the recidivism rate is slightly less at about 48%. https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=145143 https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1451...

bdcravens 7y ago

This implies that a felon has a criminal mindset and is just looking to commit more crime. I personally feel the world is safer with felons having access to code and PII (or working in financial roles) and a good salary than it is when they are released and are back in the cycle of desperation -> crime -> incarceration -> release.

newsreader 7y ago

Yes, recidivism rates are very high indeed. And I am proof of it, having done time in two countries (US and Mexico) and two states (Arizona and California) for a total of 19 years of my life. But just as I am a statistical number of those that return to prison, I am a statistical number for those that get out and stay out. I have been working as a software developer for the last 20 years and make a comfortable living from the career I chose. But my story would have been very different if I had never been given a chance to work and prove my worth. Thankfully, someone was willing to take a chance by hiring me. I’ve been free for the last 22 years, married for the last 20, father of a beautiful daughter, and grandfather to an adorable girl.

fredsanford 7y ago

>> What happens after prisoners become accountants / lawy... Or Senators, congresscritters or Presidents? Seen the TV news lately?

feistypharit 7y ago

Most crime is situational. You would be a criminal too in the right situation. Your thought process is a huge contributor of recidivism. When someone cannot escape their situation, they continue doing what they need to to survive.