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It doesn't. IANAL but I'm pretty sure that no matter what the contract says an employer's claim on work that an employee does on her own time and with her own e

by rodw 7y ago

It doesn't. IANAL but I'm pretty sure that no matter what the contract says an employer's claim on work that an employee does on her own time and with her own equipment and unrelated to the company's IP is not "obviously" something that will stand up in court. I don't know if there is relevant case law but this seems like the kind of claim that is likely to be invalidated in court. Of course at least one and possibly more of those three things are not true for the OP, so that may be a different situation.

ryandrake 7y ago
These things all depend on the country and state/province in which you are employed. Whenever this topic comes up on HN, all these armchair lawyers come out of the woodwork and start making blanket statements about what they are "pretty sure" is allowed, but this issue is dependent on what's in your contract, and what your national and/or local laws allow companies to claim. "Talk to a lawyer" is the best answer to something like this.
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  totally agree with the above, but I'd like to point out that any contract is an agreement between two parties. If the two parties involved decide to change that agreement amicably, that's fine. Court battles are the last resort, not the first move. So even if the legal opinion is that you don't have a leg to stand on, you could still get everything you want if your employer agrees to it. I would try to negotiate from that stance, instead of a legal one. So "yes, boss, I understand that contractually the IP is yours, but the community is mine, and the goodwill is mine, and the IP is worth nothing without those, because the community will just fork the code. So let's talk about how this is going to work..."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- rodw 7y ago
  > "Talk to a lawyer" is the best answer to something like this Agreed. That's probably the best advice for any non-trivial legal issue or question. I hope no one read my answer as contradicting that. That said, is there _any_ example, in _any_ jurisdiction where a court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business)? I would hate to be in position where I'd need to find out, but I'm curious if this has _ever_ been tested in court. It just seems like a ridiculously over-reaching claim.
  - smt88 7y ago
    > court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business) Yes. There are places where either by statute or by the employment contract, anything the employee creates belongs to the employer. The underlying concept is that the employer created an environment where the employee was able to learn and be inspired. I know personally of a situation where a university exercised this right, although I don't know if they did it through statutes, common law, or an explicit agreement.
    - rodw 7y ago
      If you (or anyone reading this) can link to any examples of or details about this sort of thing I'd be interested in seeing it. Don't get me wrong - I believe you - I'm just curious about it and would like to learn more.
      - smt88 7y ago
        The example I know about wasn't a newsworthy thing, just something that happened to my ex's classmate. I think the sticking point was that the IP was in the field he was getting his degree in, even though it wasn't related to any of his research (or any of the other research at the school). I tried to Google for some other examples, but (as usual) Google mangled my search into a completely unrelated topic.
    - demosito666 7y ago

by rodw 7y ago

ryandrake 7y ago

These things all depend on the country and state/province in which you are employed. Whenever this topic comes up on HN, all these armchair lawyers come out of the woodwork and start making blanket statements about what they are "pretty sure" is allowed, but this issue is dependent on what's in your contract, and what your national and/or local laws allow companies to claim. "Talk to a lawyer" is the best answer to something like this.

marcus_holmes 7y ago
totally agree with the above, but I'd like to point out that any contract is an agreement between two parties. If the two parties involved decide to change that agreement amicably, that's fine. Court battles are the last resort, not the first move. So even if the legal opinion is that you don't have a leg to stand on, you could still get everything you want if your employer agrees to it. I would try to negotiate from that stance, instead of a legal one. So "yes, boss, I understand that contractually the IP is yours, but the community is mine, and the goodwill is mine, and the IP is worth nothing without those, because the community will just fork the code. So let's talk about how this is going to work..."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
rodw 7y ago
> "Talk to a lawyer" is the best answer to something like this Agreed. That's probably the best advice for any non-trivial legal issue or question. I hope no one read my answer as contradicting that. That said, is there _any_ example, in _any_ jurisdiction where a court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business)? I would hate to be in position where I'd need to find out, but I'm curious if this has _ever_ been tested in court. It just seems like a ridiculously over-reaching claim.
- smt88 7y ago
  > court has upheld an employer's right to IP that meets those three criteria (employee's own time, own equipment and unrelated to the employers business) Yes. There are places where either by statute or by the employment contract, anything the employee creates belongs to the employer. The underlying concept is that the employer created an environment where the employee was able to learn and be inspired. I know personally of a situation where a university exercised this right, although I don't know if they did it through statutes, common law, or an explicit agreement.
  - rodw 7y ago
    If you (or anyone reading this) can link to any examples of or details about this sort of thing I'd be interested in seeing it. Don't get me wrong - I believe you - I'm just curious about it and would like to learn more.
    - smt88 7y ago
      The example I know about wasn't a newsworthy thing, just something that happened to my ex's classmate. I think the sticking point was that the IP was in the field he was getting his degree in, even though it wasn't related to any of his research (or any of the other research at the school). I tried to Google for some other examples, but (as usual) Google mangled my search into a completely unrelated topic.
  - demosito666 7y ago