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The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is telling
by lizardking 7y ago
The American political left would gain immensely and lose exactly nothing by being less condescending. The first line of argument they should abandon is telling people they are voting against their own interests. It’s remarkably insulting, and arrogantly presupposes you know know better what another person’s interests are.
- zozbot234 7y agoI usually see the argument "you're voting against your own interests" from the free-market, libertarianish side. You may be right that it's often viewed as condescending, but I'm not sure what the alternative would be since the proper pursuit of 'enlightened self-interest' is the whole point of that sort of politics.
- seibelj 7y agoThe condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. No one knows what someone’s self-interest is except the person who is voting. Considering the US has only 2 major options on elections, there is a panoply of reasons why someone votes and merely saying “poor people who vote republican are brainwashed idiots” is what grates on people who believe everyone has their own agency regardless of their economic class.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago> The condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. Is it condescending if it's true, though?
- sokoloff 7y agoCondescension and correctness are largely orthogonal axes.
- krapp 7y ago>the condescending part is that the left views poor people who vote for non-democrats as voting against their self-interest. And the right views poor people who vote for Democrats as lazy grifters just looking for a handout, naive fools in the pocket of globalist elites, or else not "real Americans" like themselves. It isn't only the left or Democrats which have a problem in this regard. The right/Republican end of the spectrum is fueled by its naked contempt for everyone outside their camp.
- wolco 7y agoYou have it wrong. In many cases poor people are better served by voting for lower taxes, cheaper products, maintaining the status quo so there factory job can stay a little longer. It might mean dropping union protections because it makes there state more investable. In the auto sector jobs shifted to southern states without unions.
- seibelj 7y agoI didn’t say anything about the issues. What could I be wrong about? All I said is, if you believe anyone from X voting for the other guy means that they are brainwashed, you are delusional. People vote how they want for innumerable reasons. All poor people, gay people, black people, etc. cannot be easily bucketed into voting units. Everyone has their own agency as individuals.
- Seanzie 7y agoIt seems like a losing argument, from whichever direction. Who would not be ashamed to confess, that they took only their own interests into consideration when voting?
- qmmmur 7y agoYou don't have to guess what a lot of people's interests are. They will tell you. In my constituency people were annoyed with our sitting member who is Labor because the train prises increased. They want lower train fares so they voted conservative. So yes, it is actually easy in some cases to say someone voted against their interest.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- colejohnson66 7y agoNo. They didn’t vote against their interest. They voted for someone who supposedly would fulfill their interests. Voting against your interests implies you know your interests are wrong.
- XorNot 7y agoWould that change a single thing about the way you vote if they did?
- lizardking 7y agoNot sure how I vote is relevant to the conversation.
- harimau777 7y agoI'm not sure that a better solution is possible in America's current political climate. As I see it there are basically three approaches that a progressive could take in a policy debate: - Persuasion: I think that you are mistaken as to what is in your best interest, here's why my approach would benefit you more. - Negotiation: Here's how we can work together to find a solution that meets both of our interests. - Zero Sum: I recognize that this isn't in your best interest but I don't care because its in my interest. Due to the power of Fox News and the Republican party's current willingness to ignore facts, I don't think persuasion is possible. Similarly, the strategy that Fox News and the Republican party have taken of promoting polarization, demonizing the other side, using straw-man arguments, etc.[1] Makes it impossible to have the kind of nuanced debate and compromise that would be necessary for a negotiated solution. Therefore, it seems like all that is left is a zero sum solution. If the other side won't listen or negotiate then the only option remaining is to implement our policies whether they like them or not. I'm not saying that's an ideal situation, but it seems to me that its the reality that we find ourselves in. [1] To be fair, I think that progressives do this to a worrying extent as well. However, I single out the Republican party due to the degree to which they have focused on this strategy and because the fact that many Republicans get all of their news from Fox makes the strategy almost unassailable.
- lizardking 7y agoYou don’t need to convince republicans, you need to convince moderates who can be persuaded to vote one way or the other in a given election. In the context of a general election, we’re talking about thousands of people in a handful of states. I’m struggling with how the idea of “condescension isn’t persuasive” is finding so much friction here.
- Zarath 7y agoThe democratic party still hasn't learned from their mistakes of the last election unfortunately.
- travisoneill1 7y ago
- learnstats2 7y agoDo the American political right not constantly say the same thing? But face less scrutiny when they say it.
- lizardking 7y agoFailure to scrutinize your performance when you are losing is a recipe for more losing.
- Glide 7y agoThe American political right faces constant scrutiny from left learning news in America. The simple fact is that somehow labor unions seem to be turning against the political left, which means someone messed up big time.
- tcbawo 7y agoMedia in the echo-chambers emphasize the bogeyman/straw man arguments of the other side, ensuring that right-leaning audiences only sees the video and soundbites that reinforce the effete, ivory tower, condescending, detached-from-reality stereotypes. Similarly, the left-leaning population only sees the racism, intolerance, education-bashing, and fact denial. Neither represents more than 5% of the population, but each political leaning believes the stereotype represents 50% of the other side.
- TulliusCicero 7y agoI've always thought that the line about people voting against their own interests was just addressing an irrelevant point. Billionaires who support Sanders and Warren are voting against their own interest because they'd get taxed higher, does anyone think that's bad? There's nothing wrong with voting on principle, rather than for what directly benefits you personally.