7 ms·

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Ge

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Getting a lawyer involved may just turn in to an expensive and antagonistic experience that winds up with you simply ending up....with them owning the IP. One thing to consider- spin off your side project and try to get your employer as your first customer or as the exclusive distributor. But your employment contract should have an IP provision, and that is going to be 99% of any outcome.

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
it does look like an open/shut case. and without knowing full details this would also be my first reaction. But IMO it's still worth talking to (2 or 3) lawyers which specialize on the subject[1]. It gets expensive only if you decide to fight - and you don't need to make that decision just yet. Just asking a legal expert to review your case isn't going to be outrageously expensive, but gives you a better understanding for deciding if this is worth any risks. And it would give you also a clear picture about how to protect yourself for any future ideas. [1] I have a rule which served me well. Interview (review) any legal adviser, accountant or consultant that you might want a professional relationship with. After talking to several people you know exactly the questions to ask them to decide if they are a good match for you. Also ask them for client references and a sample invoice they have issued for similar cases. Do these discussions always in person (over a coffee) never online. The first consultation has always been free for me (idk how it is in the US though).
- goatherders 7y ago
  Agreed/good post. It never hurts to talk to a lawyer. And a good lawyer is one who will tell you the truth, which is sometimes you dont have a left to stand on.
  - edw 7y ago
    Another thing good lawyers generally tell their clients is not to litigate and try to work things out. This seems like a great example where there seems to be goodwill on both sides and appeals to fairness and decency and reasonableness might be far more effective than belligerence. I recommend all of the above even if you do have the law on your side -- life is short and memories are long.
amiga_500 7y ago
> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Why do Americans consider themselves free?
- trulyrandom 7y ago
  Because they are free to choose to not work for a company that has such an IP clause in its employee contract. They are also free to negotiate a change to that clause.
  - colejohnson66 7y ago
    Theoretically. Not everyone has the liberty to change jobs at will and be fine.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - michaelbrave 7y ago
    Ah yes, the choice of working or not working.
    - amiga_500 7y ago
      I choose to live on the street and not pay my wages via tribute to usurers! I'm free! (no loitering).
- ican1 7y ago
  This comment is unnecessarily antagonistic. The government here doesn't intrude as much on private employment contracts as in Europe. Maybe as a result the salaries in the US are much higher and unemployment rate over time also much lower.
  - fock 7y ago
    and mortality is increasing again. geez, what a great country to live in!
Zod666 7y ago
> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them I've heard this many times before but what are the limits to this? Say you work at software company x and on the weekends at home you are coding a project completely unrelated to work, a dating app, a mobile game, whatever. How can any contract be all encompassing as to legally allow that?
- munmaek 7y ago
  Such clauses would get immediately thrown out.
  - codyguy 7y ago
    even if it's explicitly stated in the contract and the employee has agreed to it? Why would it get thrown out?
    - yulaow 7y ago
      Some states (don't know in USA, speaking from EU) have laws against "unfair clauses" which make those automatically null even if you accept it. Usally the point is that for each clause in a contract which put an obligation on the employee, the employer must "give something back" to repay for that obligation in equal terms. In this case in my state the employer should at least have paid for all the time out-of-work in which op worked on his IP, and with a rate established by op
    - terranoct 7y ago
      Contracts state a lot of things that don't necessarily hold up. It's just words on paper. Sometimes they're even tenable in one area, then used in another state which disallows some claim or another. Employment contracts in particular are subject to a lot of restrictions and protections regardless of what the employer makes people sign, because labor laws.
    - clucas 7y ago
      There are things that you can't contract away. An obvious example in the U.S. is that even if you have a contract saying you have to work for someone for no pay, forever, with no possibility of getting out the contract, it would be unenforceable because we, as a nation, have decided that slavery should not be legal. It turns out, many of these un-contractable issues involve the employer/employee relationship... another example: even if you sign a contract saying your employer doesn't have to pay you overtime, that provision would be thrown out if you challenged it, and would probably get the employer in trouble with various agencies, including the IRS. I am a lawyer, but I don't have experience in this field, and this is not legal advice (you have to hire me for that), but this issue seems like one that a court (depending on the state, no doubt) would find that it doesn't matter what the contract says, an employer can't own everything an employee does. To emphasize: this is NOT legal advice, don't rely on it, and you really should seek counsel if you are encountering this issue in real life.
RocketSyntax 7y ago
Yeah, this is written into my non-compete. Going to renegotiate it when promoted.
HashThis 7y ago
When your company wants your side project, you should be polite. Say "no thank you"

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago

it does look like an open/shut case. and without knowing full details this would also be my first reaction. But IMO it's still worth talking to (2 or 3) lawyers which specialize on the subject[1]. It gets expensive only if you decide to fight - and you don't need to make that decision just yet. Just asking a legal expert to review your case isn't going to be outrageously expensive, but gives you a better understanding for deciding if this is worth any risks. And it would give you also a clear picture about how to protect yourself for any future ideas. [1] I have a rule which served me well. Interview (review) any legal adviser, accountant or consultant that you might want a professional relationship with. After talking to several people you know exactly the questions to ask them to decide if they are a good match for you. Also ask them for client references and a sample invoice they have issued for similar cases. Do these discussions always in person (over a coffee) never online. The first consultation has always been free for me (idk how it is in the US though).

goatherders 7y ago
Agreed/good post. It never hurts to talk to a lawyer. And a good lawyer is one who will tell you the truth, which is sometimes you dont have a left to stand on.
- edw 7y ago
  Another thing good lawyers generally tell their clients is not to litigate and try to work things out. This seems like a great example where there seems to be goodwill on both sides and appeals to fairness and decency and reasonableness might be far more effective than belligerence. I recommend all of the above even if you do have the law on your side -- life is short and memories are long.

amiga_500 7y ago

> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Why do Americans consider themselves free?

trulyrandom 7y ago
Because they are free to choose to not work for a company that has such an IP clause in its employee contract. They are also free to negotiate a change to that clause.
- colejohnson66 7y ago
  Theoretically. Not everyone has the liberty to change jobs at will and be fine.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- michaelbrave 7y ago
  Ah yes, the choice of working or not working.
  - amiga_500 7y ago
    I choose to live on the street and not pay my wages via tribute to usurers! I'm free! (no loitering).
ican1 7y ago
This comment is unnecessarily antagonistic. The government here doesn't intrude as much on private employment contracts as in Europe. Maybe as a result the salaries in the US are much higher and unemployment rate over time also much lower.
- fock 7y ago
  and mortality is increasing again. geez, what a great country to live in!

Zod666 7y ago

> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them I've heard this many times before but what are the limits to this? Say you work at software company x and on the weekends at home you are coding a project completely unrelated to work, a dating app, a mobile game, whatever. How can any contract be all encompassing as to legally allow that?

munmaek 7y ago
Such clauses would get immediately thrown out.
- codyguy 7y ago
  even if it's explicitly stated in the contract and the employee has agreed to it? Why would it get thrown out?
  - yulaow 7y ago
    Some states (don't know in USA, speaking from EU) have laws against "unfair clauses" which make those automatically null even if you accept it. Usally the point is that for each clause in a contract which put an obligation on the employee, the employer must "give something back" to repay for that obligation in equal terms. In this case in my state the employer should at least have paid for all the time out-of-work in which op worked on his IP, and with a rate established by op
  - terranoct 7y ago
    Contracts state a lot of things that don't necessarily hold up. It's just words on paper. Sometimes they're even tenable in one area, then used in another state which disallows some claim or another. Employment contracts in particular are subject to a lot of restrictions and protections regardless of what the employer makes people sign, because labor laws.
  - clucas 7y ago
    There are things that you can't contract away. An obvious example in the U.S. is that even if you have a contract saying you have to work for someone for no pay, forever, with no possibility of getting out the contract, it would be unenforceable because we, as a nation, have decided that slavery should not be legal. It turns out, many of these un-contractable issues involve the employer/employee relationship... another example: even if you sign a contract saying your employer doesn't have to pay you overtime, that provision would be thrown out if you challenged it, and would probably get the employer in trouble with various agencies, including the IRS. I am a lawyer, but I don't have experience in this field, and this is not legal advice (you have to hire me for that), but this issue seems like one that a court (depending on the state, no doubt) would find that it doesn't matter what the contract says, an employer can't own everything an employee does. To emphasize: this is NOT legal advice, don't rely on it, and you really should seek counsel if you are encountering this issue in real life.

RocketSyntax 7y ago

Yeah, this is written into my non-compete. Going to renegotiate it when promoted.

HashThis 7y ago

When your company wants your side project, you should be polite. Say "no thank you"