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You take position of authority, criticize, but you are not educating. > The fields of art and aesthetics have a long, complex history and have been studied and

You take position of authority, criticize, but you are not educating. > The fields of art and aesthetics have a long, complex history and have been studied and written upon by thousands of intelligent scholars, designers, artists, philosophers, and religious figures. So, let me ask you, why should I care? I care about design e.g. "The Design of Everyday Things": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI But what is it about aesthetics that is not subjective?

keiferski 7y ago
You should care because (presumably) you don't want to be an ignorant person (as in, lacking knowledge). If you don't see why being ignorant is undesirable, then I can't really help you. If you're genuinely interested in learning about aesthetics, then you'll have to do a lot of reading. As with pretty much any complex topic, there are no easy one-line answers. I recommend starting with the Wikipedia page, browsing some articles in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and then finding some books in areas that you find interesting. If you're a software engineer, for example, then I'd recommend Aesthetic Computing. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics - https://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=aesthetics https://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=aestheti... - https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/aesthetic-computing https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/aesthetic-computing
- Isinlor 7y ago
  I'm sorry, but your argument can be applied to everything. > You should care because (presumably) you don't want to be an ignorant person (as in, lacking knowledge). Everybody is ignorant about approximately everything. People may find me ignorant because I don't follow some celebrities, sports etc. We need to choose what we educate ourselves on. To me, it seems like you are making a social proof argument. Other people care about it, so I should care about it too, because otherwise I may be labeled as ignorant. But at the same time, I doubt that this is the kind of argument you want to make. I assume you have some stronger reasons. I like the monologue of Feynman about Beauty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E To me, aesthetics is more or less a curiosity. An aspect of our cognition, that is relevant only because it is a result of evolution, some kind of heuristics for dealing with the world. Would you agree with that kind of characterization?
  - keiferski 7y ago
    Well I can only speak personally, but if I have a strong opinion on something, I prefer to be quite knowledgeable about the topic. Having public opinions on aesthetic matters while knowingly admitting ignorance seems pretty foolish and close-minded to me. And no I wouldn’t agree that aesthetics is a curiosity; I think it’s perhaps one of the most important topics there is. Wittgenstein, Nietzsche and countless others would agree.
    - Isinlor 7y ago
      Well, I'm pretty happy to discount theology for example. My knowledge of the subject is rather small, but big enough that I'm aware that it is a very rich discipline of knowledge. As atheist/agnostic I just don't see any use for it. I'm reading "Wittgenstein’s Aesthetics" from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy [0] and ... At least this summary doesn't peak my interest. Granted, I seem to have different opinions to Wittgenstein, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the arguments presented are, dare I say it, not aesthetically pleasing :) . > Wittgenstein, Nietzsche and countless others would agree. Again, proof from authority + social proof. I don't care how big their names are, or how many people believe it. So, I will end here. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/
coldtea 7y ago
>So, let me ask you, why should I care? Because there are more things people should care about than things that can be proven axiomatically or measurement-wise that they should.
- Isinlor 7y ago
  I agree, and I'm ok with other types of arguments from the ones you mentioned. But why people, me included, should care about aesthetics in particular? We have limited time, we need to choose how to allocate it.

keiferski 7y ago

You should care because (presumably) you don't want to be an ignorant person (as in, lacking knowledge). If you don't see why being ignorant is undesirable, then I can't really help you. If you're genuinely interested in learning about aesthetics, then you'll have to do a lot of reading. As with pretty much any complex topic, there are no easy one-line answers. I recommend starting with the Wikipedia page, browsing some articles in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and then finding some books in areas that you find interesting. If you're a software engineer, for example, then I'd recommend Aesthetic Computing. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics - https://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=aesthetics https://plato.stanford.edu/search/searcher.py?query=aestheti... - https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/aesthetic-computing https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/aesthetic-computing

Isinlor 7y ago
I'm sorry, but your argument can be applied to everything. > You should care because (presumably) you don't want to be an ignorant person (as in, lacking knowledge). Everybody is ignorant about approximately everything. People may find me ignorant because I don't follow some celebrities, sports etc. We need to choose what we educate ourselves on. To me, it seems like you are making a social proof argument. Other people care about it, so I should care about it too, because otherwise I may be labeled as ignorant. But at the same time, I doubt that this is the kind of argument you want to make. I assume you have some stronger reasons. I like the monologue of Feynman about Beauty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmbwczTC6E To me, aesthetics is more or less a curiosity. An aspect of our cognition, that is relevant only because it is a result of evolution, some kind of heuristics for dealing with the world. Would you agree with that kind of characterization?
- keiferski 7y ago
  Well I can only speak personally, but if I have a strong opinion on something, I prefer to be quite knowledgeable about the topic. Having public opinions on aesthetic matters while knowingly admitting ignorance seems pretty foolish and close-minded to me. And no I wouldn’t agree that aesthetics is a curiosity; I think it’s perhaps one of the most important topics there is. Wittgenstein, Nietzsche and countless others would agree.
  - Isinlor 7y ago
    Well, I'm pretty happy to discount theology for example. My knowledge of the subject is rather small, but big enough that I'm aware that it is a very rich discipline of knowledge. As atheist/agnostic I just don't see any use for it. I'm reading "Wittgenstein’s Aesthetics" from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy [0] and ... At least this summary doesn't peak my interest. Granted, I seem to have different opinions to Wittgenstein, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the arguments presented are, dare I say it, not aesthetically pleasing :) . > Wittgenstein, Nietzsche and countless others would agree. Again, proof from authority + social proof. I don't care how big their names are, or how many people believe it. So, I will end here. [0] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wittgenstein-aesthetics/

coldtea 7y ago

>So, let me ask you, why should I care? Because there are more things people should care about than things that can be proven axiomatically or measurement-wise that they should.

Isinlor 7y ago
I agree, and I'm ok with other types of arguments from the ones you mentioned. But why people, me included, should care about aesthetics in particular? We have limited time, we need to choose how to allocate it.