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A VAT alone would be bad for consumers. But the VAT is being used to fund a UBI of $1000 per month for everyone. So even the worst case of the full 10% is pas

A VAT alone would be bad for consumers. But the VAT is being used to fund a UBI of $1000 per month for everyone. So even the worst case of the full 10% is passed to consumers (and this doesn't happen in other VAT countries, it's usually half the VAT passed to consumers), a consumer would have to spend $120,000 per year in VAT eligible goods (usually essentials like food are excluded) to negate the $1000 per month UBIfunded by the VAT.

542458 7y ago
The VAT+UBI is notably bad for anybody on disability today. Disability today averages around $1200 per month. With Yang’s UBI, you choose between disability and UBI - so most people on disability aren’t getting any more cash. But now they have to pay 10% VAT as well, so they basically see a 10% decrease in buying power. Can’t say I’m a huge fan of that, since UBI often gets touted as a “help the poorest” thing. EDIT: looks like Yang's position on the stuff below changed. His website used to say it wouldn't stack with anything, now it says it stacks with some things, which makes more sense. I'm till not completely convinced though, since the combination of programs that it doesn't stack with can easily exceed the $1000/mo limit that make it regressive again. But there's a complicated analysis there that I'm not qualified to make.
- chillacy 7y ago
  Disability is an interesting one: many of the former auto workers filed for disability, and the number of applicants keeps going up every year. The number of people receiving disability has increased 5x since 1970: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01... In effect disability ends up being a basic income for former auto workers laid off, which is not what it was intended for. Those on benefits are fearful of losing their benefits for appearing too "able-bodied" and those who legitimately need assistance have to go through appeals proving their disability. One could imagine a better system of UBI for all + additional disability, for those who genuinely are unable to work.
- Heybud 7y ago
  Not entirely true, straight from his website "You can collect both SSDI and $1,000 a month. Most people who are legally disabled receive both SSDI and SSI. Under the universal basic income, those who are legally disabled would have a choice between collecting SSDI and the $1,000, or collecting SSDI and SSI, whichever is more generous. Even some people who receive more than $1,000 a month in SSI would choose to take the Freedom Dividend because it has no preconditions. Basic income removes these requirements and guarantees an income, regardless of other factors." https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/ https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/
  - 542458 7y ago
    Hunh - I'm wrong. In my defense, Yang seems to have revised his plan on this - his website used to read "We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of Universal Basic Income because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits." So it looks like they softened this position at some point? But yeah, that's a much better position than the old one.
iudqnolq 7y ago
This sounds like a general statistic. But the more a good is a necessity and the fewer substitutes are available the more of a tax they pay. So it's definitely possible for half the VAT to be passed on to consumers and poorer people to pay more than half the VAT depending on a lot of specifics I don't know.

542458 7y ago

The VAT+UBI is notably bad for anybody on disability today. Disability today averages around $1200 per month. With Yang’s UBI, you choose between disability and UBI - so most people on disability aren’t getting any more cash. But now they have to pay 10% VAT as well, so they basically see a 10% decrease in buying power. Can’t say I’m a huge fan of that, since UBI often gets touted as a “help the poorest” thing. EDIT: looks like Yang's position on the stuff below changed. His website used to say it wouldn't stack with anything, now it says it stacks with some things, which makes more sense. I'm till not completely convinced though, since the combination of programs that it doesn't stack with can easily exceed the $1000/mo limit that make it regressive again. But there's a complicated analysis there that I'm not qualified to make.

chillacy 7y ago
Disability is an interesting one: many of the former auto workers filed for disability, and the number of applicants keeps going up every year. The number of people receiving disability has increased 5x since 1970: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01.html https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statcomps/di_asr/2016/sect01... In effect disability ends up being a basic income for former auto workers laid off, which is not what it was intended for. Those on benefits are fearful of losing their benefits for appearing too "able-bodied" and those who legitimately need assistance have to go through appeals proving their disability. One could imagine a better system of UBI for all + additional disability, for those who genuinely are unable to work.
Heybud 7y ago
Not entirely true, straight from his website "You can collect both SSDI and $1,000 a month. Most people who are legally disabled receive both SSDI and SSI. Under the universal basic income, those who are legally disabled would have a choice between collecting SSDI and the $1,000, or collecting SSDI and SSI, whichever is more generous. Even some people who receive more than $1,000 a month in SSI would choose to take the Freedom Dividend because it has no preconditions. Basic income removes these requirements and guarantees an income, regardless of other factors." https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/ https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/
- 542458 7y ago
  Hunh - I'm wrong. In my defense, Yang seems to have revised his plan on this - his website used to read "We currently spend between $500 and $600 billion a year on welfare programs, food stamps, disability and the like. This reduces the cost of Universal Basic Income because people already receiving benefits would have a choice but would be ineligible to receive the full $1,000 in addition to current benefits." So it looks like they softened this position at some point? But yeah, that's a much better position than the old one.

iudqnolq 7y ago

This sounds like a general statistic. But the more a good is a necessity and the fewer substitutes are available the more of a tax they pay. So it's definitely possible for half the VAT to be passed on to consumers and poorer people to pay more than half the VAT depending on a lot of specifics I don't know.