5 ms·

> Free speech means unlimited freedom to lie, right? This has never been, and will never be true. Free speech has always had legal limitations. It’s illegal to

> Free speech means unlimited freedom to lie, right? This has never been, and will never be true. Free speech has always had legal limitations. It’s illegal to defame someone, for example. Who really wants to live in a world where it’s so much easier and effective to lie than to tell the truth? Where the burden of seeking the truth becomes finding a needle in a haystack, do you want to live in that world? History has shown us when societies fail to recognize the truth, and it has only ever brought death and destruction. If the freedom to spread lies far and wide without repercussions overpowers our society’s ability to function, we’re in for some deep trouble.

gumby 7y ago
I believe defamation is a civil matter, not a criminal one.
- JonathonW 7y ago
  This depends entirely on jurisdiction, and even in the US (where there are no criminal defamation laws at the federal level) varies from state to state. Much of Europe still have criminal defamation laws on the books, for example.
  - harryh 7y ago
    Indeed there are many many ways in which much of Europe doesn't really respect the ideals of free speech. This is but one example.
AlexandrB 7y ago
> Who really wants to live in a world where it’s so much easier and effective to lie than to tell the truth? I don't think anyone wants that, but this has been the case since the invention of the printing press and probably longer. It also gets really tricky when what is a lie vs. what is truth is not obvious.
- save_ferris 7y ago
  > I don't think anyone wants that Someone is presumably making a handsome living by lying for the rich, so at least one person wants this. And there are people paying for this service, so clearly there are people who want to live in this kind of world. It doesn't matter that this problem has existed forever. So has murder. Are you arguing that we shouldn't care about people murdering each other because it's a timeless problem? I assume no. It's not tricky at all when someone knowingly, intentionally pushes fake content at scale to sway public opinion. That's an unconscionable act with very clear and dark intentions. That shouldn't be "tricky" to assess, because we know very clearly that what they are doing is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    How about when news organizations intentionally leave out details to hint a particular theme that itself is a lie? For example, only reporting arguments from one side of a trial.
    - malandrew 7y ago
      Lies of omission by the press doesn't get the attention it deserves. You can't trust journalists to report on bad behavior in their own industry.
- pstuart 7y ago
  > I don't think anyone wants that The group of people that is pushing the "fake news" line definitely wants that. It is absolutely dependent upon lying to maintain power.
papito 7y ago
We are also experiencing a giant race to the lowest common denominator, fueled by social media. "Everyone lies, so what the hell". The U.S. Government at the very top is infested now with habitual grifters and liars. Young people look at them, and go - it works for them, they are all rich. https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/christianne-allen-giuliani-079762 https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/christianne-allen-g... "Rudy's new 20 year-old spokeswoman hasn't finished college, pretended to be related to George Allen, and has given herself many titles that are not accurate. “Nobody can figure out who the eff she is or how she got in there,” a friend of Giuliani told me." She is twenty.
- aww_dang 7y ago
  >The U.S. Government at the very top is infested now with habitual grifters and liars. When was this not the case?
  - pjc50 7y ago
    I wouldn't describe either FDR or Eisenhower as grifters. Carter was very big on integrity. Difficult to see Obama as a grifter either, although his honesty has been somewhat compromised by the forever war.
    - aww_dang 7y ago
      A cursory google search revealed as the first result: ''FDR was a gifted and facile liar,'' https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/13/books/manipulative-secretive-and-great.html https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/13/books/manipulative-secret... I would expect much of the same from a glance at any politician. Politics is a field that rewards deception. The perverse incentives of democracy have been illustrated from Plato through to Hans Hermann Hoppe.
      - papito 7y ago
        Sure, but it's done with some restraint and fear of consequences. With shame, if you will. The new way is obvious, shameless, blatant, and unapologetic. "We run this bitch, what are YOU going to do about it". No? I grew up in Ukraine in the most corrupt post-Soviet era. Even then corruption was done with finesse. A lush mansion is hidden from the view, and you really need to go looking for it. Not the Steve Mnuchin level of "we are going to take a private jet to Fort Knox, watch the Solar eclipse on top of a pile of gold, and put it on Instagram" kind.
sneak 7y ago
> It’s illegal to defame someone, for example. In most of the USA, this simply isn’t accurate.

gumby 7y ago

I believe defamation is a civil matter, not a criminal one.

JonathonW 7y ago
This depends entirely on jurisdiction, and even in the US (where there are no criminal defamation laws at the federal level) varies from state to state. Much of Europe still have criminal defamation laws on the books, for example.
- harryh 7y ago
  Indeed there are many many ways in which much of Europe doesn't really respect the ideals of free speech. This is but one example.

AlexandrB 7y ago

> Who really wants to live in a world where it’s so much easier and effective to lie than to tell the truth? I don't think anyone wants that, but this has been the case since the invention of the printing press and probably longer. It also gets really tricky when what is a lie vs. what is truth is not obvious.

save_ferris 7y ago
> I don't think anyone wants that Someone is presumably making a handsome living by lying for the rich, so at least one person wants this. And there are people paying for this service, so clearly there are people who want to live in this kind of world. It doesn't matter that this problem has existed forever. So has murder. Are you arguing that we shouldn't care about people murdering each other because it's a timeless problem? I assume no. It's not tricky at all when someone knowingly, intentionally pushes fake content at scale to sway public opinion. That's an unconscionable act with very clear and dark intentions. That shouldn't be "tricky" to assess, because we know very clearly that what they are doing is absolutely, unequivocally, wrong.
- kortilla 7y ago
  How about when news organizations intentionally leave out details to hint a particular theme that itself is a lie? For example, only reporting arguments from one side of a trial.
  - malandrew 7y ago
    Lies of omission by the press doesn't get the attention it deserves. You can't trust journalists to report on bad behavior in their own industry.
pstuart 7y ago
> I don't think anyone wants that The group of people that is pushing the "fake news" line definitely wants that. It is absolutely dependent upon lying to maintain power.

papito 7y ago

We are also experiencing a giant race to the lowest common denominator, fueled by social media. "Everyone lies, so what the hell". The U.S. Government at the very top is infested now with habitual grifters and liars. Young people look at them, and go - it works for them, they are all rich. https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/christianne-allen-giuliani-079762 https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/10/christianne-allen-g... "Rudy's new 20 year-old spokeswoman hasn't finished college, pretended to be related to George Allen, and has given herself many titles that are not accurate. “Nobody can figure out who the eff she is or how she got in there,” a friend of Giuliani told me." She is twenty.

aww_dang 7y ago
>The U.S. Government at the very top is infested now with habitual grifters and liars. When was this not the case?
- pjc50 7y ago
  I wouldn't describe either FDR or Eisenhower as grifters. Carter was very big on integrity. Difficult to see Obama as a grifter either, although his honesty has been somewhat compromised by the forever war.
  - aww_dang 7y ago
    A cursory google search revealed as the first result: ''FDR was a gifted and facile liar,'' https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/13/books/manipulative-secretive-and-great.html https://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/13/books/manipulative-secret... I would expect much of the same from a glance at any politician. Politics is a field that rewards deception. The perverse incentives of democracy have been illustrated from Plato through to Hans Hermann Hoppe.
    - papito 7y ago
      Sure, but it's done with some restraint and fear of consequences. With shame, if you will. The new way is obvious, shameless, blatant, and unapologetic. "We run this bitch, what are YOU going to do about it". No? I grew up in Ukraine in the most corrupt post-Soviet era. Even then corruption was done with finesse. A lush mansion is hidden from the view, and you really need to go looking for it. Not the Steve Mnuchin level of "we are going to take a private jet to Fort Knox, watch the Solar eclipse on top of a pile of gold, and put it on Instagram" kind.

sneak 7y ago

> It’s illegal to defame someone, for example. In most of the USA, this simply isn’t accurate.