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I was pretty badly turned off by Kenneth Reitz and the way he handled conflict with Pipenv. I disliked how instead of listening to feed back or being constructi

I was pretty badly turned off by Kenneth Reitz and the way he handled conflict with Pipenv. I disliked how instead of listening to feed back or being constructive he just gave off a kind of fuck you attitude. There were real and critical issues with pipenv that he would not budge on and it truly felt like he was in the minority. I know, its his project he can do what he wants but in the context it did not make sense. I especially disliked it due to how he sold Pipenv as being officially endorsed by Python (which its not and has never been) but it did trick me for a short time. Finding out it was never official endorsed is what made me never want to support any of his projects again. Posting this here again in case anyone missed it. https://vorpus.org/blog/why-im-not-collaborating-with-kenneth-reitz/ https://vorpus.org/blog/why-im-not-collaborating-with-kennet...

shakna 7y ago
> Use Pipenv to manage library dependencies when developing Python applications. See Managing Application Dependencies for more details on using pipenv. > Consider other tools such as pip when pipenv does not meet your use case. Is this [0] not an official endorsement? It certainly seems as much. [0] https://packaging.python.org/guides/tool-recommendations/ https://packaging.python.org/guides/tool-recommendations/
- infecto 7y ago
  Oh wow new to me. Had not seen that one. Even more disappointing because the tool is far from primetime. Going back to the original. A few years back when I was using pipenv it kept the tagline that it was the future of python and endorsed fully but I am pretty sure that was a stretch or perhaps the maintainer was using his clout and his own recommendation.
- jzl 7y ago
  Those pages are managed by the "PyPA" group, not technically python.org itself, although they were given a subdomain there. Start here and follow the links for more info: https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deps-2018/ https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deps-2018/
  - shakna 7y ago
    I'm aware that the Python Packaging Authority is not the Python Software Foundation. But they are also the Packaging Authority. The PSF may not have officially granted them some sort of status, but as PyPA maintain pip, setuptools and warehouse, they are in fact the authority when it comes to packaging, unless the PSF comes out with a statement saying they aren't.
  - mook 7y ago
    By having the subdomain, they're endorsed (possibly transitively) by whoever runs python.org. If they want to _not_ endorse whatever PyPA is doing, they need to not supply the subdomain.
chenning 7y ago
You know who else handled conflict in a way that wasn't always understood? Linus Torvalds. I think there's a theme here. Why is it that successful project maintainers sometimes lose their patience with the community? Remember when GvR left the Python community? I think one of his final public statements was, "Now that PEP 572 is done, I don’t ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions."
- marcus_holmes 7y ago
  Didn't Linus decide that he'd not been doing this well, and needed to change the way he managed conflict, though? Or did I dream that?
  - luhn 7y ago
    Not a dream. https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167
  - chenning 7y ago
    I thought he was apologizing for his use of personal attacks, profanity, insults, and generally what he describes as a lack of empathy. Things like that. His hardliner attitude hasn't changed.
- infecto 7y ago
  I can of see a difference though. I am not condoning some of the ways I have seen Linus handle threads but it at least always seemed that there was a valid reason at the root. Maybe it was not communicated well but there did seem to be a reason. In the case of Pipenv, there were broken workflows that would have made this tool unusable for a large portion of the community and the response was just go pound sand? That specific case has been resolved since then but I dropped using it after that thread came up.

shakna 7y ago

> Use Pipenv to manage library dependencies when developing Python applications. See Managing Application Dependencies for more details on using pipenv. > Consider other tools such as pip when pipenv does not meet your use case. Is this [0] not an official endorsement? It certainly seems as much. [0] https://packaging.python.org/guides/tool-recommendations/ https://packaging.python.org/guides/tool-recommendations/

infecto 7y ago
Oh wow new to me. Had not seen that one. Even more disappointing because the tool is far from primetime. Going back to the original. A few years back when I was using pipenv it kept the tagline that it was the future of python and endorsed fully but I am pretty sure that was a stretch or perhaps the maintainer was using his clout and his own recommendation.
jzl 7y ago
Those pages are managed by the "PyPA" group, not technically python.org itself, although they were given a subdomain there. Start here and follow the links for more info: https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deps-2018/ https://hynek.me/articles/python-app-deps-2018/
- shakna 7y ago
  I'm aware that the Python Packaging Authority is not the Python Software Foundation. But they are also the Packaging Authority. The PSF may not have officially granted them some sort of status, but as PyPA maintain pip, setuptools and warehouse, they are in fact the authority when it comes to packaging, unless the PSF comes out with a statement saying they aren't.
- mook 7y ago
  By having the subdomain, they're endorsed (possibly transitively) by whoever runs python.org. If they want to _not_ endorse whatever PyPA is doing, they need to not supply the subdomain.

chenning 7y ago

You know who else handled conflict in a way that wasn't always understood? Linus Torvalds. I think there's a theme here. Why is it that successful project maintainers sometimes lose their patience with the community? Remember when GvR left the Python community? I think one of his final public statements was, "Now that PEP 572 is done, I don’t ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions."

marcus_holmes 7y ago
Didn't Linus decide that he'd not been doing this well, and needed to change the way he managed conflict, though? Or did I dream that?
- luhn 7y ago
  Not a dream. https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167 https://lkml.org/lkml/2018/9/16/167
- chenning 7y ago
  I thought he was apologizing for his use of personal attacks, profanity, insults, and generally what he describes as a lack of empathy. Things like that. His hardliner attitude hasn't changed.
infecto 7y ago
I can of see a difference though. I am not condoning some of the ways I have seen Linus handle threads but it at least always seemed that there was a valid reason at the root. Maybe it was not communicated well but there did seem to be a reason. In the case of Pipenv, there were broken workflows that would have made this tool unusable for a large portion of the community and the response was just go pound sand? That specific case has been resolved since then but I dropped using it after that thread came up.