4 ms·

I would argue that the cognitive dissonance regarding labor from pro-union advocates is more fascinating. Anyone can organize themselves already, independent of

I would argue that the cognitive dissonance regarding labor from pro-union advocates is more fascinating. Anyone can organize themselves already, independent of organized labor laws - it's called a company. If employees are so confident in their abilities, they could just as well form their own company and sell their labor as a service back to their former employer. It doesn't make sense to have a special allowance for unions that forces everyone into collective bargaining and effectively a second, parallel management structure.

ergothus 7y ago
How does trying to form a different company (which has additional concerns a union doesnt) deal with issues like noncompete, arbitration clauses, etc?
- greglindahl 7y ago
  California is solving those issues by passing laws, which solves the problem for everyone, not just a subset.
- whateveracct 7y ago
  It doesn't. The comment you're replying to completely discounts the systemic power imbalance at play that unionization is meant to counteract.
whateveracct 7y ago
This is some capitalist nonsense.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, and especially not name-calling ones and ideological battle ones. We're trying for better than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - whateveracct 7y ago
    So if I say arbitrary stuff like what I was responding too but use enough words, it's all good? The "just make a company" is not just unsubstantive but also a completely fake idea :) it's comical propaganda dressed up in verbiage Sounds like the issue isn't content but rather whether something is quippy or wordy.
    - dang 7y ago
      Yes and no. The way to refute a bad comment is by respectfully providing better information, and this is very much a question of content. "This is some capitalist nonsense" obviously doesn't do that. It may feel to you like you were refuting the GP as much as it deserved, but from the point of view of an open-minded reader who's here to learn and doesn't have a fixed position, your comment contains no information, only name-calling. Don't forget that all this is a matter of degree. Degrees of badness matter; responding to a bad comment with a still-worse one is a step in the wrong direction.
simion314 7y ago
This is honestly naive, if I dump poison in the river your village is drinking from you should move the village. If a company is abusing the employees what is the danger in organizing and negotiating better conditions as a group and not as individuals . The only excuse I read here on HN is that "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me."
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  > The only excuse I read here on HN is that "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me." And one could easily say this is a ploy by management-level people to show the other serfs that "You can make it too!" because paying one dev who's a little better than his peers costs a fraction of paying them all what they should be paid.
  - throwawaysea 7y ago
    > "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me." This is a valid concern for highly-paid/specialized individuals, IMO. Price's Law (https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/ https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/): 50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work.
    - simion314 7y ago
      Probably true but how many devs that think they are 10X are just regular devs with 10X ego that compare themselves with the lowest possible dev to feel superior. I could see a union that won't put upper limit but would fight for fairness, extra hours paid double, no more then X hours a month etc.
    - FussyZeus 7y ago
      Except that the very concept of a 10X developer, no matter what they themselves may say about it, is disgusting; it's a person who has, even if willingly, distorted their work/life balance to a point where they "go the extra mile" as management would put it; usually involving working off hours, working extra hours, working from home on weekends and evenings, or eschewing general life activities in favor of doing more work. I know this is sacrilege to say this in our system and even moreso in our profession, but this is not good for you. I don't care how much you like it, I don't care how much money you're gaining from it, I don't care if you're the most willing of willing to have ever willed. You're abusing yourself in exchange for money, and that's the end of it and it shouldn't be allowed. You should have a salary commensurate with your skill set, and you should not have to eschew anything resembling a proper work/life balance to do it.

ergothus 7y ago

How does trying to form a different company (which has additional concerns a union doesnt) deal with issues like noncompete, arbitration clauses, etc?

greglindahl 7y ago
California is solving those issues by passing laws, which solves the problem for everyone, not just a subset.
whateveracct 7y ago
It doesn't. The comment you're replying to completely discounts the systemic power imbalance at play that unionization is meant to counteract.

whateveracct 7y ago

This is some capitalist nonsense.

dang 7y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN, and especially not name-calling ones and ideological battle ones. We're trying for better than that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- whateveracct 7y ago
  So if I say arbitrary stuff like what I was responding too but use enough words, it's all good? The "just make a company" is not just unsubstantive but also a completely fake idea :) it's comical propaganda dressed up in verbiage Sounds like the issue isn't content but rather whether something is quippy or wordy.
  - dang 7y ago
    Yes and no. The way to refute a bad comment is by respectfully providing better information, and this is very much a question of content. "This is some capitalist nonsense" obviously doesn't do that. It may feel to you like you were refuting the GP as much as it deserved, but from the point of view of an open-minded reader who's here to learn and doesn't have a fixed position, your comment contains no information, only name-calling. Don't forget that all this is a matter of degree. Degrees of badness matter; responding to a bad comment with a still-worse one is a step in the wrong direction.

simion314 7y ago

This is honestly naive, if I dump poison in the river your village is drinking from you should move the village. If a company is abusing the employees what is the danger in organizing and negotiating better conditions as a group and not as individuals . The only excuse I read here on HN is that "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me."

FussyZeus 7y ago
> The only excuse I read here on HN is that "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me." And one could easily say this is a ploy by management-level people to show the other serfs that "You can make it too!" because paying one dev who's a little better than his peers costs a fraction of paying them all what they should be paid.
- throwawaysea 7y ago
  > "I am a 10X dev and I don;t want the union to pay me the same as my colleague that is a lesser developer then me." This is a valid concern for highly-paid/specialized individuals, IMO. Price's Law (https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/ https://dariusforoux.com/prices-law/): 50% of the work is done by the square root of the total number of people who participate in the work.
  - simion314 7y ago
    Probably true but how many devs that think they are 10X are just regular devs with 10X ego that compare themselves with the lowest possible dev to feel superior. I could see a union that won't put upper limit but would fight for fairness, extra hours paid double, no more then X hours a month etc.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Except that the very concept of a 10X developer, no matter what they themselves may say about it, is disgusting; it's a person who has, even if willingly, distorted their work/life balance to a point where they "go the extra mile" as management would put it; usually involving working off hours, working extra hours, working from home on weekends and evenings, or eschewing general life activities in favor of doing more work. I know this is sacrilege to say this in our system and even moreso in our profession, but this is not good for you. I don't care how much you like it, I don't care how much money you're gaining from it, I don't care if you're the most willing of willing to have ever willed. You're abusing yourself in exchange for money, and that's the end of it and it shouldn't be allowed. You should have a salary commensurate with your skill set, and you should not have to eschew anything resembling a proper work/life balance to do it.