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What's next, "America's caffeine epidemic"? Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the ti

What's next, "America's caffeine epidemic"? Interspersed with all this pedantry is a smarmy judgement towards stimulants and COMPLETE LACK of context of the times, and a lack of any societal or species context that recognizes the BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times of "Oh so bad bad we should be ashamed it's an epidemic!" There's an undercurrent here that is almost criminal. The sin is not excess, certainly at 5mg a dose. The sin is not 'euphoria', which often turns out to be psych-speak for 'a simple will to live'. What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things. Aside from the specific physiological effects like chronically overbearing hearts that also plagues athletes, the worst mental effects of stimulants are often blamed directly on the drug -- not abusers' lack of discipline -- and result from a LACK OF or DISRUPTION OF sleep. Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.

irscott 7y ago
I dated someone with a meth problem for five years and would disagree with you. Meth completely changes a person's personality. I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis
- ddorian43 7y ago
  What about cases with people using legal drugs (ritalin,adderall etc) ? Who knows what's inside meth/speed/cocaine/weed that you buy in the street ?
- rank0 7y ago
  Not all stimulants are the same. Meth is certainly higher risk than other commonly prescribed amphetamines. Psychosis comes from abuse...from binges and lack of basic self care. Life crippling drug abuse is USUALLY a symptom of a deeper problem, rather than the problem itself.
- drewsmahgoos 7y ago
  Sorry, but that's just one person. In what situation would you trust a study based on one person? I know, lots of people go crazy on meth. There is also god knows what else in street meth. There are so many people taking amphetamines that are successful and there are people taking prescription methamphetamine as well. Personally I wouldn't want to be on stimulants, long term, on a daily basis. But just because you know one person(or maybe more) that went crazy and had a personality change on meth, does not mean that there isn't successful use. There are also plenty of people successfully using opiates as well. So many people use drugs daily and live a normal life.
  - throwaway_tech 7y ago
    >In what situation would you trust a study based on one person? Anytime someone else makes a blanket statement with no study (example: amphetamine doesn't make you crazy)...all you need is n=1 to disprove that.
    - drewsmahgoos 7y ago
      But that goes both ways...
      - throwaway_tech 7y ago
        Proving and disproving a hypothesis are entirely different standards. For example I have a coin with heads/tails, I hypothesis if I flip it it always lands on heads and we flip it 1 time (n=1), and sure enough it lands on heads that doesn't prove my hypothesis (its very weak support at best), whereas is we flip the coin 1 time (n=1) and its tails that disproves my hypothesis (or at least is strong support my hypothesis is wrong).
    - vidarh 7y ago
      But that requires demonstrating an actual casual relationship, not just a correlation.
trianglem 7y ago
Stimulants like speed are highly addictive. With mental alertness also comes euphoria that users chase. It builds tolerance quickly and users resort to taking ever larger amounts that ends up devastating their bodies.
CPLX 7y ago
> Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy. Perhaps. They do, however, have a pretty direct relationship with overly verbose writing and excessive use of all-caps formatting.
- galaxyLogic 7y ago
  Amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs no doubt. But I don't think they are healthy in larger doses. They wear the user out. But I assume many artistic people take them, and I think that is the Faustian deal with the Devil.
Spooky23 7y ago
Typically our bladders protect us from meaningful abuse of caffeine. Amphetamines are super addictive and are prone to abuse. You build a tolerance and chase either euphoria or that increased alertness. In military context, the operations surrounding German conquest of France and allied bombing campaigns meaningfully benefited from speed. But there was a pretty significant and trivially measurable human cost to the soldiers who used them heavily. Check out the book "Blitzed" for an interesting history of it's use in WW2.
dillPicklez 7y ago
Man this sounds like the rant of someone hopped up on goofballs. Tell me what transpires when society loses the tradition of staying amped on uppers for the sake of success? Let's say society kind of forgets that all success depends on speed, and the next generation isn't clued in on the reality that all prior achievements were the result of maxing out doses? They try to do it sober, and can't, and don't understand why. What then?
Cougher 7y ago
Ok, call me crazy, but I've got this weird pet theory that says that while some drugs can offer benefits, they also carry a risk of harm. I call these “side effects”. Another theory of mine is that drugs that offer benefits such as improvements in mood and energy, these drugs can lead to people wanting more of them, especially if they're physiologically addicting. People might even hoard their drugs so they can use them in larger quantities or they may buy them illegally so they can use them recreationally rather than as medications to correct a professionally diagnosed problem. I call this “drug seeking behavior” and “substance abuse”. Absolutely nothing wrong with the drugs themselves though. Just like opiates. Absolutely nothing wrong with those drugs and the suggestion that there is an opiate epidemic is just trying to tell us all that we should be ashamed of ourselves because of an alleged epidemic. “COMPLETE LACK of context of the times” You misplaced “complete” in your sentence. The article may lack complete context, but there isn't a complete lack of context. “BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times” This reminds me of my peers who brag about how great the music was back when we were kids, as though they can take credit for how good the music was that other people played just because we happened to be alive at the time so we could drop doses of things like amphetamines while listening to it. I would concede that some people who were high on amphetamines could do a lot of things – even great things – that isn't quite a proof of them being a net social good. “There's an undercurrent here that's almost criminal.” I'd love to read some actual quotes from the article that support your assertion. “Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.” Such as a quote that claims this.
oarabbus_ 7y ago
5mg of amphetamine, while a light dose, is much stronger than a strong cup of coffee.
- thebean11 7y ago
  How do you measure "strength"? It's probably more euphoric, might result in higher "alertness" (based on some arbitrary test), on the other hand though it probably wouldn't raise your heart rate more than the coffee, or your blood pressure.
  - oarabbus_ 7y ago
    It would do all of those things more than a typical cup of coffee; 5mg amphetamine is the lowest common dose (something like a 6-8oz cup of coffee), whereas 10-20mg is more common. A small 8oz coffee has ~120mg caffeine, and a 12oz cup has ~180mg. a 10mg amphetamine has considerably stronger effects on the CNS than even 180mg caffeine, and a far greater psychoactive effect. We are of course assuming a "typical" individual; there are those who have extreme jitteryness off half a cup of coffee, as there are those who experience myocardial events off typically therapeutic doses of amphetamine.
dang 7y ago
Can you please not use allcaps for emphasis, even when commenting on caffeine and amphetamines? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
ditonal 7y ago
I was using a moderate, prescribed dose of Vyvanse/Adderall, I've always basically always had ADHD type symptoms and it was never a huge issue, but I never took any pills until I was an adult in an attempt to focus and get promoted at my big 4 job. It ended up backfiring as I had a manic/psychotic episode, which led to highly erratic behavior that led to me losing my job, burning all my career bridges, etc. Then I also got diagnosed with heart failure. Almost ruined my life in every sense. Since then I'm just totally sober, off all meds, and fortunately my brain and heart have both fully recovered. Were there other factors that triggered the episode, sure, did I probably have some predisposition to these issues, sure, but I highly suspect that the ADHD meds played a major role in triggering it all and I would highly caution people against them.
- xenihn 7y ago
  I have to ask, how much were you taking, and how often? And were you mixing it with caffeine?
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
    Without context it's hard to conceptualize their experience. Did they start with 5mg Ritalin/day or 20mg adderal 3x/day? Did they take it exactly as prescribed? Did they get 7-8 hours of sleep every day? If they started with 3x20/day and didn't sleep for 36 hours before before having a psychotic beak, well that's to be expected..
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
>> What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things. Sleeping well, eating well, keeping fit and surrounding yourself with interesting people - those deliver many times more than caffeine and amphetamine without any of the side-effects or the risk of addiction.

irscott 7y ago

I dated someone with a meth problem for five years and would disagree with you. Meth completely changes a person's personality. I think all drugs should be legal and think humans have done amazing things with/on drugs. I've also seen this go horribly awry and witnessed some absolutely insane things from people on speed. There's a lot more to it than simply a lack of sleep. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stimulant_psychosis

ddorian43 7y ago
What about cases with people using legal drugs (ritalin,adderall etc) ? Who knows what's inside meth/speed/cocaine/weed that you buy in the street ?
rank0 7y ago
Not all stimulants are the same. Meth is certainly higher risk than other commonly prescribed amphetamines. Psychosis comes from abuse...from binges and lack of basic self care. Life crippling drug abuse is USUALLY a symptom of a deeper problem, rather than the problem itself.
drewsmahgoos 7y ago
Sorry, but that's just one person. In what situation would you trust a study based on one person? I know, lots of people go crazy on meth. There is also god knows what else in street meth. There are so many people taking amphetamines that are successful and there are people taking prescription methamphetamine as well. Personally I wouldn't want to be on stimulants, long term, on a daily basis. But just because you know one person(or maybe more) that went crazy and had a personality change on meth, does not mean that there isn't successful use. There are also plenty of people successfully using opiates as well. So many people use drugs daily and live a normal life.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  >In what situation would you trust a study based on one person? Anytime someone else makes a blanket statement with no study (example: amphetamine doesn't make you crazy)...all you need is n=1 to disprove that.
  - drewsmahgoos 7y ago
    But that goes both ways...
    - throwaway_tech 7y ago
      Proving and disproving a hypothesis are entirely different standards. For example I have a coin with heads/tails, I hypothesis if I flip it it always lands on heads and we flip it 1 time (n=1), and sure enough it lands on heads that doesn't prove my hypothesis (its very weak support at best), whereas is we flip the coin 1 time (n=1) and its tails that disproves my hypothesis (or at least is strong support my hypothesis is wrong).
  - vidarh 7y ago
    But that requires demonstrating an actual casual relationship, not just a correlation.

trianglem 7y ago

Stimulants like speed are highly addictive. With mental alertness also comes euphoria that users chase. It builds tolerance quickly and users resort to taking ever larger amounts that ends up devastating their bodies.

CPLX 7y ago

> Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy. Perhaps. They do, however, have a pretty direct relationship with overly verbose writing and excessive use of all-caps formatting.

galaxyLogic 7y ago
Amphetamines are performance enhancing drugs no doubt. But I don't think they are healthy in larger doses. They wear the user out. But I assume many artistic people take them, and I think that is the Faustian deal with the Devil.

Spooky23 7y ago

Typically our bladders protect us from meaningful abuse of caffeine. Amphetamines are super addictive and are prone to abuse. You build a tolerance and chase either euphoria or that increased alertness. In military context, the operations surrounding German conquest of France and allied bombing campaigns meaningfully benefited from speed. But there was a pretty significant and trivially measurable human cost to the soldiers who used them heavily. Check out the book "Blitzed" for an interesting history of it's use in WW2.

dillPicklez 7y ago

Man this sounds like the rant of someone hopped up on goofballs. Tell me what transpires when society loses the tradition of staying amped on uppers for the sake of success? Let's say society kind of forgets that all success depends on speed, and the next generation isn't clued in on the reality that all prior achievements were the result of maxing out doses? They try to do it sober, and can't, and don't understand why. What then?

Cougher 7y ago

Ok, call me crazy, but I've got this weird pet theory that says that while some drugs can offer benefits, they also carry a risk of harm. I call these “side effects”. Another theory of mine is that drugs that offer benefits such as improvements in mood and energy, these drugs can lead to people wanting more of them, especially if they're physiologically addicting. People might even hoard their drugs so they can use them in larger quantities or they may buy them illegally so they can use them recreationally rather than as medications to correct a professionally diagnosed problem. I call this “drug seeking behavior” and “substance abuse”. Absolutely nothing wrong with the drugs themselves though. Just like opiates. Absolutely nothing wrong with those drugs and the suggestion that there is an opiate epidemic is just trying to tell us all that we should be ashamed of ourselves because of an alleged epidemic. “COMPLETE LACK of context of the times” You misplaced “complete” in your sentence. The article may lack complete context, but there isn't a complete lack of context. “BREATHTAKING ACHIEVEMENTS during said times” This reminds me of my peers who brag about how great the music was back when we were kids, as though they can take credit for how good the music was that other people played just because we happened to be alive at the time so we could drop doses of things like amphetamines while listening to it. I would concede that some people who were high on amphetamines could do a lot of things – even great things – that isn't quite a proof of them being a net social good. “There's an undercurrent here that's almost criminal.” I'd love to read some actual quotes from the article that support your assertion. “Stimulants do NOT, in themselves, make you crazy.” Such as a quote that claims this.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

5mg of amphetamine, while a light dose, is much stronger than a strong cup of coffee.

thebean11 7y ago
How do you measure "strength"? It's probably more euphoric, might result in higher "alertness" (based on some arbitrary test), on the other hand though it probably wouldn't raise your heart rate more than the coffee, or your blood pressure.
- oarabbus_ 7y ago
  It would do all of those things more than a typical cup of coffee; 5mg amphetamine is the lowest common dose (something like a 6-8oz cup of coffee), whereas 10-20mg is more common. A small 8oz coffee has ~120mg caffeine, and a 12oz cup has ~180mg. a 10mg amphetamine has considerably stronger effects on the CNS than even 180mg caffeine, and a far greater psychoactive effect. We are of course assuming a "typical" individual; there are those who have extreme jitteryness off half a cup of coffee, as there are those who experience myocardial events off typically therapeutic doses of amphetamine.

dang 7y ago

Can you please not use allcaps for emphasis, even when commenting on caffeine and amphetamines? This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

ditonal 7y ago

I was using a moderate, prescribed dose of Vyvanse/Adderall, I've always basically always had ADHD type symptoms and it was never a huge issue, but I never took any pills until I was an adult in an attempt to focus and get promoted at my big 4 job. It ended up backfiring as I had a manic/psychotic episode, which led to highly erratic behavior that led to me losing my job, burning all my career bridges, etc. Then I also got diagnosed with heart failure. Almost ruined my life in every sense. Since then I'm just totally sober, off all meds, and fortunately my brain and heart have both fully recovered. Were there other factors that triggered the episode, sure, did I probably have some predisposition to these issues, sure, but I highly suspect that the ADHD meds played a major role in triggering it all and I would highly caution people against them.

xenihn 7y ago
I have to ask, how much were you taking, and how often? And were you mixing it with caffeine?
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 7y ago
  Without context it's hard to conceptualize their experience. Did they start with 5mg Ritalin/day or 20mg adderal 3x/day? Did they take it exactly as prescribed? Did they get 7-8 hours of sleep every day? If they started with 3x20/day and didn't sleep for 36 hours before before having a psychotic beak, well that's to be expected..

YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago

>> What people crave with caffeine and amphetamine is mental alertness. Caffeine delivers, speed delivers more. And with that people can do, have done, incredible things. Sleeping well, eating well, keeping fit and surrounding yourself with interesting people - those deliver many times more than caffeine and amphetamine without any of the side-effects or the risk of addiction.