3 ms·

And nevertheless, plenty of faculty preach the belief that if you don't stay in academia, you are a failure. At least that's the case in mathematics. People wh

And nevertheless, plenty of faculty preach the belief that if you don't stay in academia, you are a failure. At least that's the case in mathematics. People who leave academia are spoken of as if they are dead, which might as well be the case: most stop doing mathematics, attending conferences, keep connections with peers, etc. This attitude has only began to change in the last decade.

vnorilo 7y ago
I have plenty of love for academia (PhD here) but it does, like most large institutions and corporations, show a tendency to become a huge feedback loop that interfaces only with itself and excludes the society at large, apart from siphoning money from it. We should make efforts to overcome the friction of opening up and reaching out no matter where we work. That keeps organizations healthy and sane.
- romwell 7y ago
  Fully agree. That's why I registered as a member of the Ronin Institute[1], and would encourage you to do the same if you are not employed by a university! [1]http://ronininstitute.org/ http://ronininstitute.org/
bachmeier 7y ago
This must be heavily field-dependent. I've honestly never seen that among economists. It's no doubt most common that someone in a PhD program will want to get an academic job, but places like Amazon and the Federal Reserve hire tons of PhD's. I had a student request to work with me because he thought that gave him the best chance of getting a nonacademic job, and I didn't see that as unusual. I have a student at this very moment going through the interview process with one of the big SV companies. For that matter, I would be happy to talk if a nonacademic employer were interested in me. Edit: Take a look at Paul Romer's bio. He worked his way up to full professor at Stanford, quit to start a business, and last year won the Nobel for his early academic work.
- romwell 7y ago
  It is indeed field dependent. The paradox with mathematics is that the vast majority of math PhDs end up in the industry, but they are taught as if getting a tenured position is their only way to succeed in life and attain fulfillment. There's no such stigma in Computer Science, for example (in my observations).
acollins1331 7y ago
Just look at them and go "OK BOOMER".
- dang 7y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments here? We ban accounts that post like this, and have had to ask you once already recently. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
PeterisP 7y ago
But isn't it actually the case that if you don't stay in academia, then any hopes of you contributing to mathematical research pretty much have failed? Being in academia is the main way how people can be paid to work on research. If you're not in academia and not independently wealthy, chances are you're not doing research any more - some industries have big R&D labs doing fundamental research, but usually people going to industry would be just applying the research there and providing no research output that drives the field forward.
- romwell 7y ago
  It's the case most often now, but has not been historically. Consider that Fermat was a lawyer by occupation, and more recently, Fourier did a lot of things other than math. An academic job is not all research: the amount of time and effort spent on teaching and duties is huge. So why can't people employed in the industry continue contributing to science? The problem is mostly social, I think, and it's twofold: 1)It should become the norm to not work 5 days a week in technical fields (with a pay cut, if needs be). Not "work from home"; the mental space is scarce, and switching is hard. 2)There should be no friction in being involved with academia if you are not a part of it. People not officially affiliated with an academic institution do face friction. Ronin Institute[1] is a virtual organization that aims to address (2). As for (1), people should be prepared to enter industry from the very start, so that if they do, they would be able to confidently demand the conditions that would allow them to continue with research. [1]http://ronininstitute.org/ http://ronininstitute.org/

vnorilo 7y ago

I have plenty of love for academia (PhD here) but it does, like most large institutions and corporations, show a tendency to become a huge feedback loop that interfaces only with itself and excludes the society at large, apart from siphoning money from it. We should make efforts to overcome the friction of opening up and reaching out no matter where we work. That keeps organizations healthy and sane.

romwell 7y ago
Fully agree. That's why I registered as a member of the Ronin Institute[1], and would encourage you to do the same if you are not employed by a university! [1]http://ronininstitute.org/ http://ronininstitute.org/

bachmeier 7y ago

This must be heavily field-dependent. I've honestly never seen that among economists. It's no doubt most common that someone in a PhD program will want to get an academic job, but places like Amazon and the Federal Reserve hire tons of PhD's. I had a student request to work with me because he thought that gave him the best chance of getting a nonacademic job, and I didn't see that as unusual. I have a student at this very moment going through the interview process with one of the big SV companies. For that matter, I would be happy to talk if a nonacademic employer were interested in me. Edit: Take a look at Paul Romer's bio. He worked his way up to full professor at Stanford, quit to start a business, and last year won the Nobel for his early academic work.

romwell 7y ago
It is indeed field dependent. The paradox with mathematics is that the vast majority of math PhDs end up in the industry, but they are taught as if getting a tenured position is their only way to succeed in life and attain fulfillment. There's no such stigma in Computer Science, for example (in my observations).

acollins1331 7y ago

Just look at them and go "OK BOOMER".

dang 7y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments here? We ban accounts that post like this, and have had to ask you once already recently. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

PeterisP 7y ago

But isn't it actually the case that if you don't stay in academia, then any hopes of you contributing to mathematical research pretty much have failed? Being in academia is the main way how people can be paid to work on research. If you're not in academia and not independently wealthy, chances are you're not doing research any more - some industries have big R&D labs doing fundamental research, but usually people going to industry would be just applying the research there and providing no research output that drives the field forward.

romwell 7y ago
It's the case most often now, but has not been historically. Consider that Fermat was a lawyer by occupation, and more recently, Fourier did a lot of things other than math. An academic job is not all research: the amount of time and effort spent on teaching and duties is huge. So why can't people employed in the industry continue contributing to science? The problem is mostly social, I think, and it's twofold: 1)It should become the norm to not work 5 days a week in technical fields (with a pay cut, if needs be). Not "work from home"; the mental space is scarce, and switching is hard. 2)There should be no friction in being involved with academia if you are not a part of it. People not officially affiliated with an academic institution do face friction. Ronin Institute[1] is a virtual organization that aims to address (2). As for (1), people should be prepared to enter industry from the very start, so that if they do, they would be able to confidently demand the conditions that would allow them to continue with research. [1]http://ronininstitute.org/ http://ronininstitute.org/