4 ms·

Actually when you drive a car, you have a lot more responsibility. It is easier to cause serious harm to someone while driving a multi-ton vehicle, than when ri

Actually when you drive a car, you have a lot more responsibility. It is easier to cause serious harm to someone while driving a multi-ton vehicle, than when riding a bike.

laumars 7y ago
I'd say both points are complimentary rather than contradictory. Yes, cars do require more responsibility, however they are not exclusively responsible for road safety. For example cyclists have caused serious harm and even kills pedestrians before. Also pedestrians and cyclists have caused serious accidents to motorists when causing car drivers to react suddenly, to swerve or break harshly which has resulted in those drivers colliding with other motorists. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the level of responsibility between pedestrians, cyclists and motorists are equal; clearly they're not. But there is still some shared responsibility when talking about road safety.
- mikepurvis 7y ago
  There's definitely some, but discussing this requires tact or you quickly find yourself making "all lives matter"-type arguments that can look like they're trying set the two sides up as equally dangerous or equally responsible. Or worse, an argument that ends up boiling down to "as a motorist, I will only ever drive more slowly and carefully once I no longer see any cyclist or pedestrian break another law, ever." It's particularly a challenge because of confirmation bias on the motorist's side. Every driver can remember times that they were frustrated or had to swerve to avoid an irresponsible person on a bicycle, but it's likely that those cases where a cyclist or pedestrian had to jump out of their way have passed from memory, if they were even noticed at all in the first place. I'm not immune to this— I have a recollection from a few years ago of driving out to a pumpkin patch with my family and passing a cyclist on the shoulder of the country highway without slowing down or given them a proper side buffer. I wouldn't have thought anything of it at the time except that my partner called me out on it, but it's perfectly possible that rider felt threatened by what happened. I suspect that most of the drivers who blow through crosswalks in front of me have no idea I was in them— in their mind, nothing registered as "wow, I almost hit someone because I didn't see them, I should down!" My sense from having had these conversations over the years is that most drivers enjoy an enormous amount of privilege on the road and are very resistant to acknowledging the role it has in shaping their views and experiences.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    > "all lives matter"-type arguments that can look like they're trying set the two sides up as equally dangerous or equally responsible And the failure of the “black lives matter” campaign should be evidence of how little general support you build by starting out needlessly dividing.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    "as a motorist, I will only ever drive more slowly and carefully once I no longer see any cyclist or pedestrian" I feel like the internet is full of dispatches from a fantasy/science fiction alternate universe where people are divided into warring tribes of (SUV) drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians that are somehow mutually exclusive. I vaguely remember a time or a place or a timeline when people would drive here and there, with a bike rack on their car, and then they would get out and walk or ride their bike somewhere. All in one day! But I guess today everyone does only one thing their whole life. Or else they have lost the ability to imagine doing anything other than what they are currently doing, minute by minute.
    - mikepurvis 7y ago
      Sure, there are lots of multi-modal travelers, and by and large those people are the most even-handed and reasonable in these discussions. :) Some people who cycle or take transit do so exclusively, but I suspect that many or even most have a car at home or occasionally rent one, or have at least been in a passenger in one in the recent past. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of motorists have never experienced the road from the perspective of a bicycle seat, or last rode a bike decades ago as a child or teenager. For those who live in a garage door community, it's possible that you could even go many years with your only vulnerable pedestrian experience being the weekly dash across the Wal-Mart parking lot. So yes, there is some tribalism to this. The people who ride bikes (some of the time) are a minority group, but I don't think we're the ones driving that mentality.
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        "you could even go many years with your only vulnerable pedestrian experience being the weekly dash across the Wal-Mart parking lot" You could fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot. In the Wal-Mart parking lot, naturally.

Actually when you drive a car, you have a lot more responsibility. It is easier to cause serious harm to someone while driving a multi-ton vehicle, than when riding a bike.

laumars 7y ago

I'd say both points are complimentary rather than contradictory. Yes, cars do require more responsibility, however they are not exclusively responsible for road safety. For example cyclists have caused serious harm and even kills pedestrians before. Also pedestrians and cyclists have caused serious accidents to motorists when causing car drivers to react suddenly, to swerve or break harshly which has resulted in those drivers colliding with other motorists. Just to be clear, I'm not saying the level of responsibility between pedestrians, cyclists and motorists are equal; clearly they're not. But there is still some shared responsibility when talking about road safety.

mikepurvis 7y ago
There's definitely some, but discussing this requires tact or you quickly find yourself making "all lives matter"-type arguments that can look like they're trying set the two sides up as equally dangerous or equally responsible. Or worse, an argument that ends up boiling down to "as a motorist, I will only ever drive more slowly and carefully once I no longer see any cyclist or pedestrian break another law, ever." It's particularly a challenge because of confirmation bias on the motorist's side. Every driver can remember times that they were frustrated or had to swerve to avoid an irresponsible person on a bicycle, but it's likely that those cases where a cyclist or pedestrian had to jump out of their way have passed from memory, if they were even noticed at all in the first place. I'm not immune to this— I have a recollection from a few years ago of driving out to a pumpkin patch with my family and passing a cyclist on the shoulder of the country highway without slowing down or given them a proper side buffer. I wouldn't have thought anything of it at the time except that my partner called me out on it, but it's perfectly possible that rider felt threatened by what happened. I suspect that most of the drivers who blow through crosswalks in front of me have no idea I was in them— in their mind, nothing registered as "wow, I almost hit someone because I didn't see them, I should down!" My sense from having had these conversations over the years is that most drivers enjoy an enormous amount of privilege on the road and are very resistant to acknowledging the role it has in shaping their views and experiences.
- kortilla 7y ago
  > "all lives matter"-type arguments that can look like they're trying set the two sides up as equally dangerous or equally responsible And the failure of the “black lives matter” campaign should be evidence of how little general support you build by starting out needlessly dividing.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  "as a motorist, I will only ever drive more slowly and carefully once I no longer see any cyclist or pedestrian" I feel like the internet is full of dispatches from a fantasy/science fiction alternate universe where people are divided into warring tribes of (SUV) drivers, bicyclists, and pedestrians that are somehow mutually exclusive. I vaguely remember a time or a place or a timeline when people would drive here and there, with a bike rack on their car, and then they would get out and walk or ride their bike somewhere. All in one day! But I guess today everyone does only one thing their whole life. Or else they have lost the ability to imagine doing anything other than what they are currently doing, minute by minute.
  - mikepurvis 7y ago
    Sure, there are lots of multi-modal travelers, and by and large those people are the most even-handed and reasonable in these discussions. :) Some people who cycle or take transit do so exclusively, but I suspect that many or even most have a car at home or occasionally rent one, or have at least been in a passenger in one in the recent past. Meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of motorists have never experienced the road from the perspective of a bicycle seat, or last rode a bike decades ago as a child or teenager. For those who live in a garage door community, it's possible that you could even go many years with your only vulnerable pedestrian experience being the weekly dash across the Wal-Mart parking lot. So yes, there is some tribalism to this. The people who ride bikes (some of the time) are a minority group, but I don't think we're the ones driving that mentality.
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      "you could even go many years with your only vulnerable pedestrian experience being the weekly dash across the Wal-Mart parking lot" You could fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot. In the Wal-Mart parking lot, naturally.